Liverpool FC Forum

by **67-1161385641** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:43 pm

This is club is no stranger to remarkable things, most of the time it's good, sometimes it's bad, but recently it's been shocking.

We seem to have certain fans on here, elsewhere and someone on the board that are highly ungrateful and incredibly silly.

I think by now you know where this going, but I'm not one to speak out of turn, but on this occasion I will. I'm sick to death with the unfair and unjust criticism Rafa is getting. Sure a small of percentage of that is highly constructive, however most of it is not and that's disappointing, we are supposed to be the most knowledgeable fans in the world. Yet it does not seem that way, I mean come on what's intelligent about some Liverpool fan posting "Rafa is just another Houllier", "Rafa is best mates with Ranieri"?!?!

It's no secret that Rafa's rotation policy is seen with mixed views by people, which is fine, I'm not saying you have to kiss Rafa's bum cheek or agree with everything he does, but what gets my goat is fans, pundits and ex-reds don't see the bigger picture, which is a twenty two man squad who can play with each other with good communication, continuity, consistency and heart is better and more beneficial than a team of only eleven.

Ex-reds who slam this theory are very out of touch with the modern game, I don't mean to dis-respect them at all, because they know more than me about football and what it takes to achieve so much, but in this day and age when a team can play more than 60 matches, can you honestly say that a eleven, twelve or thirteen man squad is enough? I don't think so, but people don't think about the future these days, there is no patience, everyone wants everything right away and cannot appreciate the difficulty of awakening a sleeping giant is.

I get awfully fed up when I see posts, columns and football focus and Lawro is on there blaming our poor start on rotation, because the rotation is only a small part of the problem and cannot keep being used as an argument or an answer to our problems. It runs deeper than that, it's more to do with lack of confidence within the squad and the transformation from a defensive to an attacking team, which is hard to break down at the back and impossible to stop upfront.

It takes time, but some Liverpool fans don't seem to want to work and be patient anymore, no some of these fans think because we're the best club in the world, we have a divine right to win everything every season and when we don't, they want a new manager or signings like Kaka, Ronaldinho (ok, most of them are mindless teenagers, but you'll be surprised how many of these fans are adults).

It took Shankly over a decade to lay the foundations of this football club, Rafa has a restoration job to do after almost two decades in decline, with slight glimmers of hope with Roy Evans, top table Premiership standings and Houllier's runner up spot and six trophies.

Restoration doesn't take one nor two years it can take more, and what good is it slamming the manager every five minutes?

It's also worth mentioning that Rafa used rotation at times mass rotation to his Valencia side and they dominated Spanish football and become a force to be reckoned with in Europe, you only have to look at the old Liverpool style football they played against us three or four years ago. Rafa won the Champions League and FA Cup and has taken us up a level using rotation, but because we were winning not an issue was made about it.

Right that's my first point argued, now onto the next point, which is about us "needing to sign world class players in order to do well".

Firstly what is meant by the term "world class" is it someone who does wonderful things with the ball, like running down the length of the pitch with the ball balanced on your neck and is hyped up on google videos, football focus and the media? Or is it someone who is reliable, who plays for the team and not himself, who will do his duty well week in week out? I'd go for the latter and that is why I'm pleased we've got a players like Momo Sissoko instead of players like Ronaldinho. To me it's not about signing International superstars, it's about signing the right players and more often than not it's the players like the Sissoko's who work for the team, which are much more important and much better than these fancy players.

I get awfully fed up when I hear people like puroresu say Rafa's transfer are rubbish because we didn't sign a player hyped up to high heaven and we signed one who comes with little or no hype, yet does the business week in week out for his former club.

People seem to think you need to have a team like AC Milan team like the one filled with International superstars in Istanbul or teams like Chelsea and Real Madrid to succeed in football and that's just plain tosh at the highest level. Arsenal, United, Valencia are clubs who have done very well in recent times without having a squad load of "world class" players. Our entire success is based on having the right players, with the right attitude, the right heart and simplicity, so I will not buy people saying we need to sign Alves in order to do well, we need to sign Kaka, because football might have made some transformation over the years since Shankly first took over, but the principles remain and Rafa has taken on these principles and these are the principles which will make us successful and not signing Alves, Malves, Salves or Nalves or some other hot shot.

I have nothing else to say on the matter, but please if you have time watch these video clips and perhaps you will see where I am coming from and what Rafa is planning and moulding us into.

Liverpool Video one

Liverpool Two

I apologise in advanced if I've come across pretty strong, but I needed to get that off my chest, I've just been extremely annoyed with the unfair criticism Rafa has received, because he is the best thing to happen to Liverpool since our first treble under Joe Fagan. We need to support Rafa because he won't be around forever, season's go quickly and before you know he'll be gone and he'll be gone a lot quicker if he doesn't have the majority of fans support. I believe constructive criticism is needed, not out and out nonsense like what's been said by a lot of people in recent times.

Apologies for the long post, I tried to keep it as short as possible, I just needed to get it off my chest.

Your thoughts would be most welcome.

by **66-1120597113** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:56 pm

It is has been and always will be a case of when we 'come good'

To look at the league we would surely with any sense consent to defeat!Why should we though?Today we played Villa off the park..it was a great performance!This was the same Villa that drew with all so mighty Chelsea

Villa with players like:

Didier Agate

Silvian Petrov

Chris Sutton

Hey there would be something wrong if we could not beat that lot!Its like Celtics reserves!Celtic are cr@ If ya cant beat there cast offs?

Dont play football!

by **67-1161385641** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:11 am

OK!, I get what you're saying...

by **66-1120597113** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:22 am

CharmlessMan wrote:OK!, I get what you're saying...

Gladly you will shush then?

by **Dalglish** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:42 am

Superbly well balanced and provacative post.

What fans have to realise sometimes is our limitations in terms of finances and the ability (or not) to buy players with a heavy price tag.

Benitez didn't spend big at Valencia yet was able to compete with opponents in Madrid and Barcelona who were significantly richer and had financial advantages over him. People argue that he inherited a good team at Valencia and theres some truth in that but he also lost key players from the off and still managed to secure 2 titles in 3 seasons.

Whilst Benitez doesn't come with an ability to spend comparitive to other team managers he does match them in tactical guile and knowledge of the game and he is streets ahead when it comes to dignity.....

Walk on ........

by **zarababe** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:56 am

Fantastic post .. you got that off your chest mighty eloquently

Thank you..

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:19 am

we are 11 points adrift at the end of october, forgive me for being slightly sceptical of rafas tactics but all you have to do to see he is making mistakes is look at the league table and look at our results this season.

also why do people keep saying rotation worked at valencia, so funking what? we are not valencia, we dont have the same players, we dont play in the same league so i cant see where the comparrison comes from.

the criticism is warranted at the moment, yesterday he played his strongest team and we played very well. it doesnt take a genius to work this out does it?

by **Dalglish** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:26 am

Steady on Peter.......

Thats hot weather is getting to you lad

With the exception of Man U away (a particularly gauling performance) and a freakish result at Goodison when exactly have we actually deserved to lose ? We deserved at least a pt at Stamford Bridge, were robbed at Bolton and hadn't shook off the cobwebs first day of the season at Bramhall Lane.

Its about perspective here and I'll conced its not been the bets start to a season we all would have wished for but consider this ......

United have won the Worthington Cup and runers up in the FA Cup in the last 2 seasons.

Arsenal have won ther FA Cup and runners up in the CL Final.

Chelsea have walked the title twice and won the Worthington Cup.

Liverpool ? Fa Cup Winners, European Cup winners and Carliong Cup Runners up

In all that time Rafa has rotated the team selection. At which point during the last 2 seasons did you raise your concerns about his riotation policy ?

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:40 am

yes mate i raised concerns about his rotation policy when we had a bad start the other season and were very negative, just like the start of this season.

i really do think its a problem mate, and i do think it has been the main problem this season. last time we had a bad start he decided to play a steady team and we started winning again. i am just looking at the evidence mate and the facts.

yes he won us 2 major trophies but i want the league also, or i at least still want to be in the title race at the end of the season.

the rotation policy is the problem and nobody will ever convince me any different, people also look to the excuse that we have new players bedding in, we buy new players every year mate so are they suggesting every year we will have problems while the new players bed in. we have problems because too many of these players are thrown in at the same time.

it annoys me when people look at valencia as an axample of it working, there are so many differences between us and them that it makes any comparrison pointless. just look at how its working for us, that is what should matter to the supporters, not what happned in spain 4 or 5 years ago.

i also question his 451 policy, 442 is the way to play the game, and stop the long ball every time, yesterday even hyypia looked like he could play football again without launching it at every chance he got.

yesterday it was there for everyone to see, our strongest line up, 442, our most in form forward, and the confidence oosed through the team and we beat the only team in england with an unbeaten record this season, was our defence dodgy? we didnt find out until the second half and our forward play an momentum meant they didnt even get in out half until after the break

and yes the heat is getting to me mate

by **Red Dotty** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:44 am

Dalglish wrote:Steady on Peter....... Thats hot weather is getting to you lad

With the exception of Man U away (a particularly gauling performance) and a freakish result at Goodison when exactly have we actually deserved to lose ? We deserved at least a pt at Stamford Bridge, were robbed at Bolton and hadn't shook off the cobwebs first day of the season at Bramhall Lane.

Its about perspective here and I'll conced its not been the bets start to a season we all would have wished for but consider this ......

United have won the Worthington Cup and runers up in the FA Cup in the last 2 seasons.

Arsenal have won ther FA Cup and runners up in the CL Final.

Chelsea have walked the title twice and won the Worthington Cup.

Liverpool ? Fa Cup Winners, European Cup winners and Carliong Cup Runners up

In all that time Rafa has rotated the team selection. At which point during the last 2 seasons did you raise your concerns about his riotation policy ?

For what it is worth as i am a newby./

hear bloody hear total agreement with you mate.

I love the team and it's supporters to death but i sometimes wonder how many of the boo boys go to the games. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but hell lets be strong and get behind the team i was amazed with the view that Raffa was subject to bad press. Apart from the Premier league we have been winning trophies since the turn of 2000. We are a great team and always will be end of story.

:hearts

,

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:51 am

haha boo boys, for your information i went the games regular since my fist game in 1973 aged 6, but it would be hard to get the games now as i live in thailand.

mate its an opinion based on fact, we cant all sing his praises every week, especilly when he is making mistakes.

for your infomation i am 100% behind every one at the club, i laways have been and i always will be, but mistakes are being made at the moment, results and some performances bear that out

by **Dalglish** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:53 am

Hiya Peter,

I share your concerns about this season and also your desire to win the Title as it has truly become the Holy Grail but we have to have some perspective here. We were NOT ready to mount a serious title challenge THIS season at the START of the season. Now I know thats easy to say at this stage and It's true I didn't share it on here but my closest friends know it was my opinion on August 11th 2006.

The great Shanks took 4 years to win the Title in 63-64 following it up with a FA Cup win the following season and the title the season after that. He did it by fundamentally changing the ethos and thinking within the club. Do you know how many years it had been that Liverpool had won it before Shanks won that first title as a manager ? 1946-47 (nearly 20 years)

The games changed so much since then but the cream always rises to the top and in Rafa Benitez we have a world class coach who understands issues beyond the results and expectations of fans. Thats not to say he disregards the fans but he does not allow that to be the overrdiing issue when ti comes to managing the club.

Fans will always search and scratch around for answers and thats never going to change and I fel as frustrated as the next fan when things don't go according to plan or purpose but blaming the current form on rotation when Rafa's done it for the last 999 games isn't the answer !

Walk on

by **Red Dotty** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:02 am

peewee wrote:haha boo boys, for your information i went the games regular since my fist game in 1973 aged 6, but it would be hard to get the games now as i live in thailand.

mate its an opinion based on fact, we cant all sing his praises every week, especilly when he is making mistakes.

for your infomation i am 100% behind every one at the club, i laways have been and i always will be, but mistakes are being made at the moment, results and some performances bear that out

Nice one and pleased to read you are a avid supporter, but one thought, did you have this concern at the begining of last season as well. If you did then surely you should not worry so much and sit back and look forward to the season and wait for the spark to ignite. I always thought on paper this looked a tough start for us but our run in after chrimbo looks good we are always of late poor starters.

Week in and out wining would be boaring as well hehehe lets earn the title a catch the rest of them.

Walk on mate :bowdown

by **The Manhattan Project** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:40 am

The press and some doomsayers are quick to create the impression that LFC is a club in crisis and that Rafa doesn't know what he's doing. Which seems odd considering he's won two La Liga titles, the FA Cup, the UEFA Cup and the European Cup. That's pretty impressive for someone who's wheels are supposedly coming off. I see LFC as a team who are needing to click into gear rather than suffering from any major flaws. Our realistic target for this season (fourth place) is only six points away. And not even half the season has passed.

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:05 am

Red Dotty wrote:
peewee wrote:haha boo boys, for your information i went the games regular since my fist game in 1973 aged 6, but it would be hard to get the games now as i live in thailand.

mate its an opinion based on fact, we cant all sing his praises every week, especilly when he is making mistakes.

for your infomation i am 100% behind every one at the club, i laways have been and i always will be, but mistakes are being made at the moment, results and some performances bear that out

Nice one and pleased to read you are a avid supporter, but one thought, did you have this concern at the begining of last season as well. If you did then surely you should not worry so much and sit back and look forward to the season and wait for the spark to ignite. I always thought on paper this looked a tough start for us but our run in after chrimbo looks good we are always of late poor starters.

Week in and out wining would be boaring as well hehehe lets earn the title a catch the rest of them.

Walk on mate

come on mate, i hate to argue but yes i had concerns at the start of last season, and last season we were nowhere near winning the league so even if i sit back and wait for the spark, then what? finish at least 15 points behind the winners and maybe win a cup.

in the league mate you can not sit back and wait for the spark, you need to hit the ground running and not have to play catch up. we were the best team in the second half of last season but by then it was too late, it will be the same this season even if we do go on an unbeaten run.

jjst stop funking about at the start of every season with rotation, just get our best team out every week and stop worrying

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