Liverpool FC Forum

by **kunilson** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:57 am

he's very good, most crosses by a player in the premiership or summin? can't hurt us. we just need people on the end of it

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:18 am

bigmick wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:I like him a lot, but I think there are 2 things apart from his off the field problems that are stopping him from playing at a top club:

- His lack of left foot means that he doesn’t go inside much and when he does he doesn’t look comfortable, and this is one of the requirements for top wide midfield players now a days in order to make them more dynamic and less predictable.

- He doesn’t offer enough goal threat, top wide midfield players must be looking at double figures in term of league goals in order to play for top clubs.

It's an intersting and logical view mate and I wouldn't expect any less from your good self. I wouldn't claim to be an expert on the player as I've never seen him play live I don't think, and have only watched him on the box a few times.
I would say though that it certainly appeared to me that it was Birminghams intention to start him wide-left this evening until their calamitous start led to Bruce abandoning the idea fairly sharpish. Now I'm sure the idea was to get him running accross the pitch with the ball and possibly having a shot, (though why they chose to attack Finnan and not Traore is probably known by Bruce and Bruce alone. He's always been a numpty IMHO but there you go). However if he can play wide-left (and he did switch a couple of times late on) then maybe he is not quite so peggy as you make out. As I say, I don't know the player that well but when Bruce buys Heskey and plays him uptop with the "I want him to be an old fashioned English centre-forward" endorsement ringing in his ears, it's probably not that surprising that Pennant basically hugs the right touchline and pings crosses in.
The goalscoring one is a fair one, though double figures in the league would be an exceptional return for most wide midfielders. I'm no stat man but I know Pires and Ljundberg have probably done it for Arsenal before, maybe Ronaldo for Man U while Cole has probably come close for Chelsea but not many do. I would have thought that the likes of Duff don't get anywhere near while still remaining good players. He would however need to improve in all areas for sure but my suspicion is that he could.

Birmingham most definitely had the intention of starting Pennent on the left today. Had he got the ball I’m quiet sure he wouldn’t have felt comfortable going out wide of Finnan on to his left foot, and if he had he would have cut back in after hesitating several times. I think the main idea behind playing him there was for him to cut in, attack the centre backs and have a better angle to shoot with his right foot. Bruce wanted a goal threat because it wasn’t going to come from anywhere else, so I suspect this was the reasoning for him playing left side midfield.

Well Mick, thanks to you I have had the sudden urge to do some statistical research! My claim that a top winger should expect to get 10 league goals in a season from 38 games may be a case of having high standards, but in my opinion it has now become a benchmark that top wide midfield players should at least aim for.

Naturally like anything else, football evolves and top clubs demand more and more from their players in order to stay ahead of the game. Now a days at least one of your centre backs is expected to be able to play, at least one of your centre backs is expected to have recovery pace, your full backs have to be able to take part in the build up play, your strikers must be able to do more than score they must be able to help the overall play and even defend well from the top, and in my opinion your wide men should be getting double figure for goals.

I think the phenomenon about your wide men getting double figure in terms of goals is something that has really become apparent over the last 5 years or so. So I wouldn’t expect it to be as common in the past as it is now. Also we must consider the recent trend of wide men being given the freedom to “roam” which enhances their chances of getting into goal scoring areas. So historical data may not back me up because it doesn’t consider the evolution of the players and the game itself.

Now considering that players hardly ever play 38 games in a season I thought it would be more sensible to look at what sort of game to goal ratio it would represent:

38/10 = a goal every 3.8 games.

A goal every 3.8 league games, still sounds an unreasonable ask? Lets examine the figures. In my opinion Giggs, Pires and now a days Robben are the top wide men to operate in the Premiership.

Ryan Giggs:

90-91 Manchester United 1 Goals, 2 Games = 2
91-92 Manchester United 4 Goals, 38 Games = 9.5
92-93 Manchester United 9 Goals, 41 Games = 4.5
93-94 Manchester United 13 Goals, 38 Games = 2.9
94-95 Manchester United 1 Goals, 29 Games = 29
95-96 Manchester United 11 Goals, 33 Games = 3
96-97 Manchester United 3 Goals, 26 Games = 8.6
97-98 Manchester United 8 Goals, 29 Games = 3.6
98-99 Manchester United 3 Goals, 24 Games = 8
99-00 Manchester United 6 Goals, 30 Games = 5
00-01 Manchester United 5 Goals, 31 Games = 6.2
01-02 Manchester United 7 Goals, 25 Games = 3.5
02-03 Manchester United 8 Goals, 36 Games = 4.5
03-04 Manchester United 7 Goals, 33 Games = 4.7
04-05 Manchester United 6 Goals, 32 Games = 5.3
05-06 Manchester United 1 Goals, 18 Games = 18

He has managed to beat that ratio 4 times (admittedly the first time isn’t a fair reflection). But referring to my earlier point about the game only changing the last 5 years or so, it isn’t too bad. Also consider he has been past his best for a few years now.

Robert Pires:

00-01 Arsenal 4 Goals, 33 Games = 8.2
01-02 Arsenal 9 Goals, 28 Games = 3.1
02-03 Arsenal 14 Goals, 26 Games = 1.8
03-04 Arsenal 14 Goals, 36 Games = 2.5
04-05 Arsenal 14 Goals, 33 Games = 2.3
05-06 Arsenal 5 Goals, 26 Games = 5.2

Excluding his first season in which it is no secret he struggled (And not due to the adaptation to the league as some people say, having read some extracts from his autobiography, he clearly states that he struggled because he was suffering great trouble in his personal life due to his wife/girlfriend suffering a near fatal car crash (or some sort of accident) in which there was a long rehabilitation process, or something close to those line), and excluding this season in which he is clearly past his best and has suffered from injuries all year, he has always been able to beat the ratio of 3.8.

Arjen Robben:

04-05 Chelsea 7 Goals, 18 Games = 2.5
05-06 Chelsea 6 Goals, 22 Games = 3.6

In both of Robben’s seasons so far he has beaten the ratio.

Now I could go on and look at other players, but these 3 for me are the only “A” category wide men I have seen operate in the Premiership, and the 2 that have had or are having their prime in the “modern era” that I talk about have consistently been able to beat the ratio of a goal every 3.8. I think Joe Cole, Ronaldo (at this moment in time, though he could go on to become “A” category wide man) and Duff are all “B” category players in my opinion, and I’m sure they have all broken this ratio at least once. I’m sure Ljungberg has broken this ratio a few times at least, and I would only consider him a “C” category player. So is a wide player getting into double figure in term of league goals really as uncommon as you suggested?

So in conclusion the figures seem to back up my demand that the modern day wide man should be able to get into double figures (or at least beat the ratio of a goal every 3.8 game) in a full Premiership season

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:54 am

Regarding how many goals they score, their primary objective is to create goals.

I'd take a non-scoring winger who assists 30 goals a season than one who assists 10 and scores 10.

by **TheoRacle** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:56 am

^Valid point ... Got any stats for the assists CoolHand?

by **Gracias King Rafa** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:28 am

I was quite impressed with Pennant last night although after our fans were singing "You're supposed to be in jail!" would that put him off joining us if we made a bid for him?

by **Judge** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:38 am

bigmick wrote:Pennant was good

nice first post mick, full of accuracies mate

by **Bretc** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:50 am

IF Pennant can resolve his off-the-field nonsense and change his lifestyle, I would sign him over SWP anyday, for the simple reason that he will be so much cheaper. And that is a BIG "IF" which I believe Rafa will not risk. Pennant is a good player, someone we desperately need on the right flank but he brings along too much baggage, and that is a big shame. So unless the "IF" becomes a possibility, I would rather look around for other RM. Gerrard is too good to be played as a RM, we need him down the middle where he will cause more damage.

Steed Malbranque looks good on the right flank, Premier League quality and won't cost a bomb. Might be a possibility.

by **redmikey** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:58 am

pennant is a good prospect and one not to many people would be upset by if we saw him sign today, as he will be cheap WHEN brum go down and he is fast, a good crosser and fully up to pace with our league.

but natural talent isn't everything, don hutchingson anyone!

a good central midfielder that couldn't keep his :censored:

in his pants when he had a few bevies.
rafa like a professional attitude you only have to look at the players he has got rid of already, baros ,doiuf.. are the two biggest, players with talent(well doiuf is showing some at bolton) but had the wrong attitude towards there life style and teamates

I don't know pennant personnally so i can't say that he would be a gangster wannabe, or play the big I am but thats how he comes across to me, maybe he would cherish the chance to shine or maybe the would live the life of riley, i think it is a close call

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:00 am

redmikey wrote:pennant is a good prospect and one not to many people would be upset by if we saw him sign today, as he will be cheap WHEN brum go down and he is fast, a good crosser and fully up to pace with our league.

but natural talent isn't everything, don hutchingson anyone!

a good central midfielder that couldn't keep his in his pants when he had a few bevies.
rafa like a professional attitude you only have to look at the players he has got rid of already, baros ,doiuf.. are the two biggest, players with talent(well doiuf is showing some at bolton) but had the wrong attitude towards there life style and teamates

I don't know pennant personnally so i can't say that he would be a gangster wannabe, or play the big I am but thats how he comes across to me, maybe he would cherish the chance to shine or maybe the would live the life of riley, i think it is a close call

Its actually Don Hutchison.

What a player that lad could have been. :no

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:09 am

redmikey wrote:pennant is a good prospect and one not to many people would be upset by if we saw him sign today, as he will be cheap WHEN brum go down and he is fast, a good crosser and fully up to pace with our league.

but natural talent isn't everything, don hutchingson anyone!

a good central midfielder that couldn't keep his in his pants when he had a few bevies.
rafa like a professional attitude you only have to look at the players he has got rid of already, baros ,doiuf.. are the two biggest, players with talent(well doiuf is showing some at bolton) but had the wrong attitude towards there life style and teamates

I don't know pennant personnally so i can't say that he would be a gangster wannabe, or play the big I am but thats how he comes across to me, maybe he would cherish the chance to shine or maybe the would live the life of riley, i think it is a close call

By the way good post.

Pennant is technically excellent also. His touch, passes, crosses and level of skill are absoloutely top class.

The lad has ability to be a top class footballer and is in my opinion easily good enough to play international football. He COULD be a superstar IF he gets his head right and moves to a good club. He can actually still improve though. I genuinely believe if he signed for us he would make himself undroppable and become a firm favourate.

There's no question in my mind that he's better than Wright-Phillips (who isn't a bad player). He probably lacks Wright-Phillips ability to score a goal, vision and his attitude off the pitch (which is important), but alround i reckon he pisses all over the Chelsea player and in the right environment with the right players around him could become frighteningly good.

He goes past players like they aren't even there sometimes and the quality of his final ball isn't that far off what Beckham can produce.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:39 am

TheoRacle wrote:Might just of been the overall Brum performance tonight but I wasn't particularly impressed by Pennant tbh. He got a couple of decent crosses in but I dont remember him beating his man at all during the game just took advantage of the space that was there. Cisse does that when he gets the chance and gets slated for similar performances. I do believe Pennant is much better right winger than Cisse before anyone jumps on that statement above, I just dont think he did anything overly impressive today. Looked good compared to the rest of the Brums maybe - but that wasn't hard. Probably the reason he so many goals for Brum too - the rest of the team arent up to it...

Still a huge question mark over his temperament as well in my view. The link Liverpoolanytime posted has him denying any involvement but also admits he can't explain photos of him having to be restrained by friends. Definatley not worth the hassle IMO. Keep looking Rafa...

Not sure what game you were watching mate, but every time Pennant got the ball with his first touch he was past Riise virtually every time and Hyypia was being pulled to the left back position to make a few great blocks more than once.
Pennant had a very decent game in a 7-0 defeat, he was always a threat and looked like he has the touch pace and crossing ability to be a top winger.
We havent seen much of his shooting/goalscoring ability, but that is in a struggling Birmingham side, i am sure if in all the others he is so technically sound, his shooting must be of a decent standard...and he would chip in with the goals imo.
Obviously his off field antics would need to be packed in, but that is something the likes of Gerrard and Carra could help him with.
Luke i didn't look at the ratio's of the wingers you provided stats of, but did look at the amount of goals scored.
Pires consistently got into double figures but does take alot of penalties.
Robben only scored 7 and is it 6 ?
Giggs was a pretty healthy return over a long period of time...which is impressive.
They are 3 of the best wingers in the Premiership, playing for the top 3 so they should have decent returns...based on posession and amount of time the teams will spend attacking.
Pennant on last nights performance would fit into our team and style of play with ease, and probably would cost half of what simao would.
Rafa said this week that he consults the players on future transfers, well i think Riise and co would recommend him as a future signing.

by **carmonkeycasino** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:05 am

Good player, good purchase in the summer. Yeah :;):

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:46 am

Some really interesting points. Luke you're research is impressive and definately backs up your point well. My suspicion is that Ljundberg would definately also have beaten your 3.8 ratio on a couple of occasions. Beckham in his prime may have also, while our own Luis Garcia can't have been far off last season, in all comps anyhow.
Clearly though, Kewell would be nowhere near it and most fans seem reasonably happy with his contribution these days. Wright-Phillips would get nowhere near it, nor Duff, Stuart Downing and the rest. I do take your point though that wide midfielders must contribute to the scoring, similarly you could have added into your critique on central defenders that these days at least one of them is expected to chip in with a goal or two. Times have definately changed.
I think ultimately this all boils down to the age old winger/wide midfielder argument. My feeling has always been that in a modern, combative football unit you require the latter over the former. Currently, Pennant is an out and out winger from what I can see, hugging the toughline and attempting to ping in a cross around the outstretched leg of the full-back. He is there to provide width, to stretch the play and open up the channels for Heskey and Forssell to work into. He doesn't to me look like the sort of player who attacks the back post when a cross comes in from the left, nor does he come inside and recieve the ball on the edge of the centre circle ever, opening up the possibility of a run and shot. He does though strike a decent free-kick so you would think that he probably has a goal or two in him.
All in all I think he would need to improve to become a first-team player of distiction. I am fairly sure he has it in him though, the gamble would certainly be more on his mentality than on his ability. One things certain, if Brum do go down then someone will take a chance on his errant temperament. At this time next season, the 4 million or whatever it is they will pay may well look cheap in my view.

by **GerrardisKing** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:22 pm

He`s is a good player and he was there best player last night but that wasn`t hard.I know I always say this but I`d much rather see jaoquin on our right wing.

by **dawson99** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:26 pm

Pennant looks good because if traore played for birmingham hed stand out. The guy has too much baggage. Arsenal couldnt handle him and we shouldnt want to.

Its like bellamy. Great player.. would i want him? never!

Pennant is a good player, he can do it all, but i dont think he should be wearing a liverpool shirt

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Jermaine pennant. - Just a few observations.

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