Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:02 pm

If as seems likely Rafa goes ahead with the 4-5-1 next season I pose a couple of questions. Firstly, is that the way the people on the forum would like us to play (and before a smart-erse points it out, I know Rafa doesn't come on the boards and seek approval) and which striker would you go with. Lastly, do we play a defensive 4-5-1 with a Hamman as the sitter, or an attacking one with a Garcia as the furthest forward of the middle five.
FWIW I think I would be inclined to play 4-4-2 on balance. The difficulty I have with 4-5-1 is that it allows luxury players (like Garcia if he is allowed to become one) to ponce around withiout responsibility. I quite like 4-4-2 in that there is nowhere for players to hide.
If we must play 4-5-1 though you probably have to go with Cisse up top. Maybe then the answer is to go with Morientes in the drop off slot and Garcia wide right. My concern then would be our lack of stomach for the fight.
The final the other day showed how much more solid we are when Didi sits, it's just that under Houllier we got obsessed with the ploy. I'm yet to see a convincing and realistic plan for next season, not just in personel but in the way we are going to play. Rafa's clever and he's going to need to be.

by **joependo** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:06 pm

4-5-1 IS THE MOST SENSIBLE ON BIGMICK.When we play that it seems that wee never give up for the ball.Hamman or Biscan would be our sitter and that would help the defence out a lot.Like Chelsea Makelele sits infront and does an excellent job.For my opinion rafa will choose 4-5-1 i prefer tht aswell.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:22 pm

It seems as though Rafa will definitely use his 4-5-1 system next year. The main problem I have with this system is the fact that the 2 central midfielders sit very deep. Personally I think this is one of the reasons we haven’t got the best out of Gerrard this season, he is simply not suited to sitting and controlling the play from there. We all know no one can stop him when he is running at the heart of a defence.

I still prefer a more traditional 4-4-2, where at least 1 central midfielder has the responsibility to get forward in support of the strikers, and Gerrard can do this brilliantly without ignoring his defensive duties.

On the question of strikers, I really don't think Rafa would have bought Cisse, especially for 14MIL, if he had come in an no deal had been arranged (I know about all the nice things he said about Cisse when he first came here). I think Morintes or a new striker will be the main man for us next season, the Dutch striker Kuyt and Crouch have been mentioned, this is no coincidence, Rafa likes this big string strikers who specialise in being able to hold play up and use the ball well.

I think next season the core of the team will look like this, (the XXX's will be new players or from the existing squad):

XXX

Finnan Carragher XXX XXX

Alonso Gerrard

XXX Garcia XXX

Morientes

I've heard this system described as a 4-2-3-1, so really it’s just how you perceive it and what angle you want to take on it. It can be descried as more defensive or more attacking.

I don't think that the system is what defines which style you play your football, it is about the mentality and how many men you are willing to commit forward and how many men will have restrictions on them.

Ultimately Rafa is a more cautious and defensive coach, Valencia were described as "the kings of the 1-0, especially away from home", when Rafa was in charge. His attacking style is based on possession above all, rather than speed, or aggression.

by **taff** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:26 pm

I think Rafa is a horses for courses type guy. From what Ive read etc he prefers his players to adopt a number of styles. His basic seems to be quick passing and pressing of the opposition but its determined by who the opposition is.

he said he's learned a lot of premiership lessons this season and has hinted at a few players leaving who cannot or have not stuck to their tasks during the season. He also likes squad rotation so will utilise different players for their strengths for different games. Diao against Everton for example.

Good question BigMick but without getting argumentative I think he prefers the both systems but with the exact type of player he likes to execute those systems.

Apaprently pre season is starting earlier to get the players fitter and more clued up to his style and I would imagine he will buy players for his style rather than the obvious suspects who prop up in who should we buy debates. And for all of those who shudder with the thought of more spanish players, well tough cos thats what he knows but the long term view IMO would be as he gets familiarised with English leagues he will pick up some rough diamonds for us

by **Eazy-E** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:07 pm

I don't think Gerrard likes staying in one position he likse to go forward

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:27 pm

I think 3-5-2 is a good option, but if Rafa wants 4-5-1, then we should line up like this IMO;

GK

RB CB CB LB

DM

WG WG

AM AM

ST

Obviously this would be better for home games where we could get really big wins against the lesser teams, and even the top 3 would struggle, providing we get the right players in. If Stevie goes in the AM position with Garcia, he could always drop back alongside the DM when we need some extra steel. I prefer 3-5-2, though, even though Finnan would have to play as a wingback, rather than a RB. Im glad Mr Benitez is the one with the decision to make!!!!lol!!!!

by **joependo** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:42 pm

I think 3-5-2 is a good option, but if Rafa wants 4-5-1, then we should line up like this IMO

True Lando in the final (first half)we played 442 and then got hammered.In the second we wnt to 352 and for me that worked excellent,i am not sayin Rafa will pick it but it is a good Formation for us.

by **JBG** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:16 pm

bigmick wrote:(and before a smart-erse points it out, I know Rafa doesn't come on the boards and seek approval)

Actually, I don't want to boast but a fair bit of the credit for us winning the Champions League must go down to me. :oops:

by **XSD** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:08 pm

I think he wants to build a team around Gerrard, which has worked well when Alonso and Hamann are playing because he can get forward a lot more.
Do you think he would have even been forward to meet that Riise cross if Hamann wasn't on the pitch covering behind him?
However we will need to sign a couple more centre midfielders because all 3 of these guys have had injuries, and we seem to be getting rid of Biscan and Diao.

I'd still be more inclined to a 442 in the prem, with Cisse and Morientes upfront (however we need to sign a world class striker, like Torres or Owen).

Home form has been fantastic, 442 seems to work there against most teams. When away from home we need to find a system that works, 3-5-2 obviously didn't, and Pellegrino is on his way, 4-5-1 hasn't always been best either. With really good wingers we could play 442 a lot more effectively and tear teams apart.

by **Jari's mullet** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:05 pm

From what I have seen of Morientes this season, I would be inclined to have Cisse play off him. I don't think we will get the best of Morientes on his own up front. He is good in the air and also holds the ball up well. From what I saw of him this season, it seem seemed that Cisse might be the perfect player to win the second ball, or run onto his knock ons

by **Scottbot** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:37 pm

What i think Rafa will play - Agree with Taff on this one. Horses for Courses seems to be the way Rafa plays it. Have seen us play well using 4-4-2, 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1) and 3-5-2 this season.

How i would like us to play - My personal preference is to play 4-4-2 more (not all) of the time . I feel our away form suffered this season for two reasons. 1- We didn't fight/scrap like we needed too & 2- The team were'nt adventurous enough, played like we were waiting for something to happen rather than making it happen. The boys never really imposed themselves on the opposition - I think it's easier to do this playing with 2 strikers and a more obvious goal threat. The 2-0 home win against Monaco in the Champs league was one of the best attacking performances of the season playing 4-4-2 with Stevie, Xabi, Baros and Cisse all on the pitch.

However, After that incredible night - do what you like Rafa :laugh:

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:10 pm

All this formation talk really is pointless. The fact is you need a balance within the side on players abilities and tactics. Its all well and good saying you'd prefere such and such a formation but formations alone don't and never will win you matches.

With players like Cisse, Morientes, Sinama-Pongolle and Luis Garcia its very possible and likely Rafa will use both formations on a consistent basis. I doubt we'll see three central midfielders in the same team as much next season, i simply believe he done that as a tactical ploy against sides that had better players.

If you're playing against sides with better players, you must be tactically right to stand a chance otherwise you'll simply get mauled.

by **dawson99** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:12 pm

dunno how we can stay 451 with all the strikers on the books. a 352 seems better if u ask me but it really depends what team we are going to be up against

by **115-1073096938** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:21 pm

3-5-2?

No thanks. Wouldn't touch that with a barge pole.

We've got 4 strikers.

Cisse, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sinama-Pongolle.

Dawson, what are you chattin lad?

by **dawson99** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:26 pm

stu_the_red wrote:3-5-2?

No thanks. Wouldn't touch that with a barge pole.

We've got 4 strikers.

Cisse, Morientes, Luis Garcia and Sinama-Pongolle.

Dawson, what are you chattin lad?

weve got baros, morientez, pongolle, la tallec, cisse, garcia, mellor.
(ok 3 will be gone in the summer)
Also talk of 3 or 4 new ones. (who knows whats gonna happen)

just cant see us playing 451 all the time unless cisse plays a lot deeper like garcia can.

id just like to see the old 442 again, and 352 can work when didi is part of the 5, just depends on the situation.
maybe i just dont like 451, i like 2 strikers up front, and another just behind, but thats just me.

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