Liverpool FC Forum

by **Greavesie** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:58 am

Now that the dust has settled over the win yesterday there's a few issues that I want to discuss, I feel yesterday highlighted our shortcomings in the middle of the park. There was such a lack of pressing and tracking back it was painful to watch at times, it got me thinking what our best midfield set up is, so here we go:

Gerrard - never in a million is he a centre midfielder, he doesn't track a runner and when he's coupled with Adam it becomes extremely noticible. He certainly belongs higher up the pitch, yesterday he was so deep he could have had another daughter on the way

Henderson - this guy frustrates the hell out me, the ability is there is drips and drabs but his tendancy to freeze in games and become invisible needs to be addressed. I'm convinced he'll come good but we need it to be sooner rather than later. Playing on the right isn't going to help the lad either. I'd have rather swapped Gerrard and Hendo yesterday.

Spearing - he's the only one we have atm who can protect the back 4 to anything near an effective degree. Only trouble is week in week out he simply isn't going to make it.

Lucas - We've painfully missed Lucas and would have been a lot better off if he'd have been on the pitch for me, someone to just break up the play and keep the ball

Adam - he's a good passer of the ball don't get me wrong but his immobility is worrying me, he rarely tracks a man and is prone to giving away needless fouls

Shelvey - he's a promising talent as well and seems more reliable than Hendo atm which is a concern. If one of the two warrants a run in the side its him but even then he's still a rough diamond and at this stage in the season it's too much of a risk

Downing - probably the only proper winger we have and I think that shows, it also makes our game a bit lop-sided. Any chances we were going to create yesterday were down that side for me, the right was non-existent in comparison.

Bellamy - wasn't sure whether to include him with regards to the midfield but he's completely different to Downing and has been awesome this season. He's definitely not guilty of failing to press the opposition, only problem is he can't play a good run of games.

Kuyt - probably the hero of yesterday, great servant to the club but good enough week in week out? His first touch is his achilles heel but he'll certainly harry the opposition in the more tight battles

I'm genuinely uncertain about the midfield and how we set up, to get the best out of one striker I feel we have to neglect the other. If Carroll is to be the targetman I'd play Gerrard on the right and Downing on the left, at least we can cross from either side, though that's probably Kenny's logic in putting Henderson there, to no avail.

Now this might seem like a knee jerk based on yesterday's performance but it's something that I feel has been going on for a while, mainly in an attacking sense though the failure to track runners still remains. My main gripe with the midfield is the lack of dynamism and defence splitting ability, it all seemed very laboured yesterday imo, there were many occasions in which Downing was in a good position to cross with only one or two people making the run to the box.

So, what would be your strongest midfield set up given our options and who isn't good enough? I know its a little early to discuss changes but for me it seems unbalanced and the reason behind why we haven't seen too many goals this season. I also feel it gets a bit confused at times when deciding to play to Carroll's strengths or to Suarez' so a change of personell at the front might be warranted as well

by **red till i die!!** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:48 am

really happy we won yesterday but to be fair we were fairly average and it wasnt a good match.

gerrard got played in centre to help adam out imo but he dont have the legs for that role and would be far more involved further up as you said.
henderson needs the reserves.no way is he good enough and he has serious work to do to convince the masses imo.we have seen enough of him now to realise he is a couple of years off if indeed good enough for this level.very disapointing signing and kenny insistence with him is getting boring now.play him in the reserves or loan him out.
spearing is as you said the only natural dm we have other than lucas but again he is another one that just isnt good enough.sell him in the summer.
downing is a natural winger,he stays wide has pace and the beating of most full backs in the league but maybe championship opposition suits him better.only proper winger we have so id keep him.
lucas no doubt weve missed this season but is it a case of absence makes the heart grow fonder,i dont know but he has improved and this was the season on which he could be really judged but unfortunate to miss the whole season.id keep him.
adam,other than the lack of pace he isnt that bad.would like to see a few more goals from him though.keep him imo.
shelveys only crime is that he didnt cost 20mil.he should have been given a chance or even half the faith thats shown in henderson to see what he can offer.i doubt he would be any worse than hendo.wrong player loaned out imo.
bellamy id keep,wont have the legs for many games next season but can be influential from the bench.
kuyt,really happy he got a winners medal but its time to move him on.
maxi,cant get a game and that isnt going to change either so its time for him to go also.

this has been the same story all year throughout the midfield,no creativity,no pace and no inteligence to break teams down.this is one of the worse midfields in recent memory that we have and wholesale changes are needed in the summer.sell kuyt,maxi,aqua,spearing and cole and bring in 2 decent players and that will go towards improving us in that area.
keep suarez and carroll and build our strike force around them.we still need 2 fresh faces to give us other options up front.
we need another 4 or 5 players in the summer as i cant see this bunch breaking into the top 4 either this season or next unless we spend and replace.
whether fans choose to accept it or not but we are bordering on mediocrity and mid table and that should never be accepted at liverpool football club.

by **Kenny Kan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:08 pm

The midfield and attack aren't 'doing' it for me, they haven't been all season in fairness. I don't know the combined total of goals scored by our midfield this season, I'd shudder to know the stats but they can't be impressive. I think the midfield is the issue here, even though we've lacked cutting edge upfront all season.

I agree with Greavsie, Gerrard needs to be played further up. Obviously with Lucas out, Dalglish feels Gerrard's the man to come in and hold the forte. Initially, I'd have agreed with that but watching Gerrard there is making him look ordinary. The only other possibility I think is a decent option for us at the moment is placing Spearing in next to Gerrard. Yes, wee Jay had a nightmare last time he played for us - but usually he's been pretty dependable when Lucas has been out. Gerrard needs a defensive minded player next to him, one that's more attune to the role than he is, he also needs mobility and energy next to him; non-of which Adam offers.

I like the look of Henderson, he's a decent player with even more potential. However, he hasn't made any in roads this season, his games been the same since day 1 and I think there's more to him than that. But I don't know if there is the conviction or heart in him to explode into life here, hopefully over time something may turn in favour for him. Right now though, I'd have him starting from the bench, it may alleviate some of that pressure he appears to be under.

I'm honestly not sure how I'd jig this team around, I wouldn't mind seeing Dalglish go back to 4-4-2. I thought we looked much more threatening earlier on in the season when we played with much more width and two upfront.

. Reina

. Johnson Skertel Agger Enrique

. Kuyt Gerrard Spearing Downing

Gerrard Spearing Adam Downing/Bellamy

. Suarez Carroll

. Suarez Bellamy

by **Penguins** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:12 pm

I would say our midfield in general is very average with no real top class performer. If we needed a right midfielder in the summer we shouldn't have wasted the money on Adam and Henderson, who both have been underwhelming. Gerrard can only play in an attacking role to be effective. Downing has a confidence that is so fragile. Unless he knows before the game he can beat the fullback, he won't try it. Spearing is never going to be the answer as he is not good enough for a top club.
Our back 4 and goalkeeper is top class even if Skrtel do seem to switch off once or twice each game. But he is a battler no doubt about it.
And even after spending 60 million in our 2 attacker none of them act like a striker does. Suarez is absolute world class with the ball, but his off the ball movement is poor and he rarely goes into the danger areas where the ball might arrive.
Downing had like 5 crosses to the near post and noone was even close to being the end ofi it.
But both strikers are great att making space and setting up teammates which makes my concern for our :censored:

midfield even stronger. So few of our midfielders even try to get into the box and getting into scoring positions. Hendo is scared to go near it, Gerrard has to be so far back cause of Adam's ineptitude. Adam is slower than my grandma and never gets forward.

Comolli is embarrasing himself by saying that big star players will now be attracting into coming here cause we won the league cup...
He really thinks beating Cardiff on pens will turn the heads of Europe's elite players??? :no

by **lakes10** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:12 pm

The aftermath

some of our members on here should be made to go and lick clean the boots of our players after some of the :censored:

they posted during the game.

by **Kerry07** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:53 pm

Greavesie wrote:Now that the dust has settled over the win yesterday there's a few issues that I want to discuss, I feel yesterday highlighted our shortcomings in the middle of the park. There was such a lack of pressing and tracking back it was painful to watch at times, it got me thinking what our best midfield set up is, so here we go:

Gerrard - never in a million is he a centre midfielder, he doesn't track a runner and when he's coupled with Adam it becomes extremely noticible. He certainly belongs higher up the pitch, yesterday he was so deep he could have had another daughter on the way

Henderson - this guy frustrates the hell out me, the ability is there is drips and drabs but his tendancy to freeze in games and become invisible needs to be addressed. I'm convinced he'll come good but we need it to be sooner rather than later. Playing on the right isn't going to help the lad either. I'd have rather swapped Gerrard and Hendo yesterday.

Spearing - he's the only one we have atm who can protect the back 4 to anything near an effective degree. Only trouble is week in week out he simply isn't going to make it.

Lucas - We've painfully missed Lucas and would have been a lot better off if he'd have been on the pitch for me, someone to just break up the play and keep the ball

Adam - he's a good passer of the ball don't get me wrong but his immobility is worrying me, he rarely tracks a man and is prone to giving away needless fouls

Shelvey - he's a promising talent as well and seems more reliable than Hendo atm which is a concern. If one of the two warrants a run in the side its him but even then he's still a rough diamond and at this stage in the season it's too much of a risk

Downing - probably the only proper winger we have and I think that shows, it also makes our game a bit lop-sided. Any chances we were going to create yesterday were down that side for me, the right was non-existent in comparison.

Bellamy - wasn't sure whether to include him with regards to the midfield but he's completely different to Downing and has been awesome this season. He's definitely not guilty of failing to press the opposition, only problem is he can't play a good run of games.

Kuyt - probably the hero of yesterday, great servant to the club but good enough week in week out? His first touch is his achilles heel but he'll certainly harry the opposition in the more tight battles

I'm genuinely uncertain about the midfield and how we set up, to get the best out of one striker I feel we have to neglect the other. If Carroll is to be the targetman I'd play Gerrard on the right and Downing on the left, at least we can cross from either side, though that's probably Kenny's logic in putting Henderson there, to no avail.

Now this might seem like a knee jerk based on yesterday's performance but it's something that I feel has been going on for a while, mainly in an attacking sense though the failure to track runners still remains. My main gripe with the midfield is the lack of dynamism and defence splitting ability, it all seemed very laboured yesterday imo, there were many occasions in which Downing was in a good position to cross with only one or two people making the run to the box.

So, what would be your strongest midfield set up given our options and who isn't good enough? I know its a little early to discuss changes but for me it seems unbalanced and the reason behind why we haven't seen too many goals this season. I also feel it gets a bit confused at times when deciding to play to Carroll's strengths or to Suarez' so a change of personell at the front might be warranted as well

Agree with all of that

Two things stuck out... lack of pressing. It is RIDICULOUS how deep we play. Its RIDICULOUS how much we back off.. CONSTANTLY. We drift back deep into defence rather than step upfield and press the man in possession (as Barca do). By pulling back we invite the opposition on. When Skrtel headed the ball away the entire backline should have been rushing out... instead they remained static (marking space).. so when the ball fell to Miller just outside the box there was nowhere near him.. he was free to play a simple pass through for the goal. We are ultra negative with this backing off nonsense. We should be playing a MUCH higher line.. a good 20 yards further upfield. Just as an experiment... when Liverpool are playing.. change channel.. and then put it back on the match.. and i guarantee that there will be 8 or 9 red shirts in our own half. We are so deep its scandalous. And when we do win the ball back, theres virtually no team-mate in the opposing half. Its nigh on impossible to score goals this deep. Its the reason we have drawn 8 times at home (mostly against dross). Because we dont play further upfield, we dont have enough players in and around the opposing box to carve open clear chances.. so many of our chances are from distance (long shots CONSTANTLY). How many times yesterday did we have passing moves in and around their box? I can hardly think of any. The two goals came from a corner, and... a shot from distance. The goal that they scored is the very type we should be..more men upfield, short incisive passing.

Secondly... agree.. Gerrard is not now, not ever, a central midfielder. He was 30 yards back from where he should have been (i can understand why Kenny played him there tho as we dont have anyone else). When Alonso joined, Gerrard's goal stats rocketed as he played advanced, his natural position. We badly missed Lucas in this regard as Gerrard would have been 30 yards upfield and much closer to Luis.

by **lakes10** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:32 pm

one thing stuck out for me ,Kerry07 saying that Kenny had 45mins to save his job!!!!

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:37 pm

The match thread is a complete joke and highlights the flimsy support of Internet fans.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:46 pm

We are too one dimensional... there is no off the ball movement... if there is, there is no ability or awareness to thread the ball to the player who is moving into space... it seems to me that as much as we have average joes in the team there is also a lack of coaching...

For example... the crossing is percentage crossing... the crosser crosses and hopes for someone to get the end of it. There are no players attacking the ball in the box.

And it's depressing to see that against Cardiff, we are relying too much on the corners... because only at corners we seem to have a chance of scoring with the bigger players obstructing and trying for a header...

Is this Kenny's style? I'm not too sure... but if it is it seriously worries me... Does Kenny need an assistant manager who kicks the players asses? Are the players taking it too easy?

There seem to be a lack of roles being assigned to players... Suarez is playing playstation football alone...

Surely some of the problems we are having can be addressed with good coaching and drills?

by **Greavesie** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:48 pm

I haven't read the match thread much tbh, I did notice a few slating Kenny and imo that isn't going to help anything. I started the thread with the intention of addressing the midfield issues, which I think are a concern, in no way is this thread for talking about players past, wrong decisions and finger pointing, its about making the most of what we have and where we can improve it when we have the chance

We won the cup yes and I'm as chuffed as anybody, but the way we made it difficult for ourselves hardly sets us up for the future

by **Johnny Boy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:49 pm

I know Downing has been hit and miss but if the strikers had been doing their job he would have had loads of assists.
One ball yesterday was brilliant but Carroll just didn't do enough to get on the end of it.

I really hope Henderson comes good, I still can't understand why Kenny keeps playing him on the right, but personally he wouldn't be in my starting eleven at all, and I still wonder shouldn't we have used the money better than buy him.
Hopefully I will be proved wrong.

Gerrard on the right is something that has worked in the past, it's hard to say on him at the moment as he has had a disrupted season.

There have been a few games before Lucas got injured that suggested him and Adam could be a decent partnership, however the latter's performances have been poor, and his set pieces which worked well at Blackpool haven't saved him either.

I don't think with our current players we have the midfield capable of winning or challenging for the league, we have neither the flare or creativity.
I like the way Tottenham set up with Modric and Van der Vaart, both creative and can score goals as well as keep the ball and pass effectively for others too.

I hope Kenny and Comoli look at our midfield options in the summer.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:51 pm

The midfield has been disrupted by the loss of Lucas - he was the crucial player .

Gerrard is having to do his role while Adam does the creating role and Adam isn't good enough. Henderson is currently filling the gaps but IMO should be in the middle alongside Gerrard with Kuyt/Bellamy playing right side and Downing/Bellamy playing left.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 pm

Greavesie wrote:I haven't read the match thread much tbh, I did notice a few slating Kenny and imo that isn't going to help anything. I started the thread with the intention of addressing the midfield issues, which I think are a concern, in no way is this thread for talking about players past, wrong decisions and finger pointing, its about making the most of what we have and where we can improve it when we have the chance

We won the cup yes and I'm as chuffed as anybody, but the way we made it difficult for ourselves hardly sets us up for the future

Dont judge the future on the actual game - its a final , a one off game which was never going to be a roll over that some suggest - getting the trophy was the important bit.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:57 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:The midfield has been disrupted by the loss of Lucas - he was the crucial player .

Gerrard is having to do his role while Adam does the creating role and Adam isn't good enough. Henderson is currently filling the gaps but IMO should be in the middle alongside Gerrard with Kuyt/Bellamy playing right side and Downing/Bellamy playing left.

So are you saying that Kenny is setting up the team wrongly?

by **Greavesie** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:00 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
Greavesie wrote:I haven't read the match thread much tbh, I did notice a few slating Kenny and imo that isn't going to help anything. I started the thread with the intention of addressing the midfield issues, which I think are a concern, in no way is this thread for talking about players past, wrong decisions and finger pointing, its about making the most of what we have and where we can improve it when we have the chance

We won the cup yes and I'm as chuffed as anybody, but the way we made it difficult for ourselves hardly sets us up for the future

Dont judge the future on the actual game - its a final , a one off game which was never going to be a roll over that some suggest - getting the trophy was the important bit.

I know that Benny, in cup finals two totally unmatched teams on paper can look equal, winning the final is what matters, BUT this isn't the first time the midfield has looked ordinary, I just think its very one dimensional and unbalanced at the moment. That midfield on paper isn't good enough for the top 4. God knows I'd love to be confident we can get the top 4 and I really hope we do and I'd be the last person to throw in the towel while its mathmatically possible but I'm not going into it with an optimistic view...

Just seems to me the midfield and strikers are on different wavelengths, the fact there's nobody in midfield with the vision to thread a pass into space for a striker is worrying, amonst the other things I've mentioned

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