Liverpool FC Forum

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:24 pm

RedAnt wrote:One problem is the media's habit of putting an extreme spin on everything. If someone was to say "I don't like homosexuality" that would be translated as "I hate puffs". Or if someone said "There's too many foreigners in this country" that would translate as "I'm BNP. Get the foreigners out!". We're almost forced to agree with things, and if we don't agree with something, we have to pretend we do or simply never speak of it, and yet those who are FOR it are at liberty to yell it from the rooftops and accuse those who are against it of hate crimes and predjudice.

I don't think (correct me if i'm wrong) that "puff's" would be offended.

"Poof's" however...

by **andy_g** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:19 pm

dawson99 wrote:Is calling something rubbish 'gay' homophobic? I say that all the time, in front of my sister, who is gay. she don't mind... people need to chill out

its a matter of degrees, isn't it?

saying something is 'gay' as in 'a bit rubbish' from a certain standpoint isn't all that offensive and gay people i know will use the term themselves.

on the other hand, saying something or someone is gay and by that implying that they or it are wrong, to be despised or prejudiced against is most definitely unacceptable.

this is the crux of the suarez case, the implication in suarez' words was (allegedly) taken wrongly by evra and the FA. of course, no body can prove either way if prejudice was intended or not, and this is why its so difficult to solve borderline issues of racism, sexism or homophobic behaviour.

by **worcester_red** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:23 pm

andy_g wrote:
dawson99 wrote:Is calling something rubbish 'gay' homophobic? I say that all the time, in front of my sister, who is gay. she don't mind... people need to chill out

its a matter of degrees, isn't it?

saying something is 'gay' as in 'a bit rubbish' from a certain standpoint isn't all that offensive and gay people i know will use the term themselves.

on the other hand, saying something or someone is gay and by that implying that they or it are wrong, to be despised or prejudiced against is most definitely unacceptable.

this is the crux of the suarez case, the implication in suarez' words was (allegedly) taken wrongly by evra and the FA. of course, no body can prove either way if prejudice was intended or not, and this is why its so difficult to solve borderline issues of racism, sexism or homophobic behaviour.

Doesn't gay mean happy

In all seriousness how the hell did that word get hijacked, it was a commonly used word in the 20's-30's etc

by **andy_g** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:28 pm

just as well they didn't choose the word 'awesome' instead, otherwise dawson would spend all the time telling us how gay he is.

by **Kukilon** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:30 pm

As I see it you are born into this world with the same individual freedoms as everyone else but it's socieity and other peoples threats of violence that makes us conform and follow their demands. If you don't allow the government to steal your money they will arrest you and put you in jail, if you have stupid views and express them you also face punishment. When you start punishing people for being stupid without physically hurting anyone or their property you are stepping on dangerous ground. Even worse is when you make a difference on what views are ok to have because that really foster predjudices. A man speaking about stupid stuff will be labled as a stupid person so why take it a step further? If he runs a business and discrimates against peoples skin color he will go out of business and people not discriminating will make more profits. A racist football player will loose money from sponsorship deals and clubs will not want to hire him for the same money. So what if anyone wants to discriminate someone? It just hurts themselves. Today where I live the goverment discriminate against white men who wants to apply to certain universities and jobs. That is real discrimination from the state and that is supposedly ok. What makes it more ok to discriminate against a white person? I never owned slaves so I'm not sure what I'm being punished for. The end result is that our country have never seen as much resentment towards immigrants than what we have today. I would not care one inch about this discrimination if it wasn't for that I had to pay taxes for those jobs and educations I wouldn't care one bit. Just leave me the :censored:

alone and let me get on with my life.

What is the end result? I hate my goverment and I also hate most of the population living here for allowing this to happen and I will do my utmost to avoid paying taxes or giving anything back. Is it the immigrants fault? Sure as hell ain't but since they are deemed to be finer and more worthy of protection then myself I don't want them here becaue they are basicly stealing money from me every day that goes by. Anyone that steals from me or infringes on my rights to live free and a prosperous life can go and :censored:

themselves.

My plan is to erode todays welfare society by sucking it dry of anything it has to offer and providing nothing in return. It's hard work but I'm well on my way. Todays society is on the brink of falling apart because there are no more money left to bribe the voters with.

Why should majority rule be able to suppress people and reap the benefits of peoples hard work with impunity? They are filthy thieves disguised in the cloak of democracy. How can it be ok to legalize theft just because a majority wants it that way?

by **andy_g** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:34 pm

Kukilon wrote:What is the end result? I hate my goverment and I also hate most of the population living here for allowing this to happen and I will do my utmost to avoid paying taxes or giving anything back. Is it the immigrants fault? Sure as hell ain't but since they are deemed to be finer and more worthy of protection then myself I don't want them here becaue they are basicly stealing money from me every day that goes by. Anyone that steals from me or infringes on my rights to live free and a prosperous life can go and themselves.

My plan is to erode todays welfare society by sucking it dry of anything it has to offer and providing nothing in return. It's hard work but I'm well on my way. Todays society is on the brink of falling apart because there are no more money left to bribe the voters with.

you were doing relatively ok til you got to this bit. then you pretty much lost the plot.

'the immigrants' are stealing money from you? there is no money left to bribe the voters with?

did you reread any of that and think about it before you posted it?

by **Kukilon** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:49 pm

andy_g wrote:
Kukilon wrote:What is the end result? I hate my goverment and I also hate most of the population living here for allowing this to happen and I will do my utmost to avoid paying taxes or giving anything back. Is it the immigrants fault? Sure as hell ain't but since they are deemed to be finer and more worthy of protection then myself I don't want them here becaue they are basicly stealing money from me every day that goes by. Anyone that steals from me or infringes on my rights to live free and a prosperous life can go and themselves.

My plan is to erode todays welfare society by sucking it dry of anything it has to offer and providing nothing in return. It's hard work but I'm well on my way. Todays society is on the brink of falling apart because there are no more money left to bribe the voters with.

you were doing relatively ok til you got to this bit. then you pretty much lost the plot.

'the immigrants' are stealing money from you? there is no money left to bribe the voters with?

did you reread any of that and think about it before you posted it?

Should have explained it more.

It's not the immigrants fault that the goverment gives them special benefits which results in lost opportunites for others. I would welcome anyone into my utopia that fends for themselves and that goes for all individuals. First the welfare state needs to be destroyed and people sucking on it's nipples won't allow this to happen the old fashioned way because they are now in majority. They will vote for more "stealing" just so they can keep their benefits.

Anyone using up more resources than they take out of the system are thieves and thats how I view it. The last year I have become one myself but sadly enough I have some catching up to do.

Politicans wants to get elected so therefor they promise voters this and that in return for their votes. It becomes a competition between the politicrats if they want their pay checks. Firstly the goverment doesn't have any money it steals it from it's population. Secondly promising someone to give them something that they don't have in return for political power is even worse. It's bribing people. For several years I have been paying on average 80% in taxes and it's soon impossible to tax people any harder. The only thing the politicians can do is to print more money and tax them that way instead which will not work because people don't trust fiat currencies anymore.

by **andy_g** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:05 pm

you're making some massive assumptions for starters. how exactly do these undefined special benefits for immigrants result in lost opportunities for others? how do you conclude that 'people' (which people?) don't trust 'flat' currencies anymore?

taxation in itself is a fair and just system and is vital for any society to function. whether its financial taxation or a contribution of time and effort. society doesn't actually owe us anything, its not our mum and dad and we should be contributing to the provision of services and the protection of those less fortunate. of course, our taxes aren't always used in the manner which we would like - doesn't mean that anyone is stealing from us though.

by **Kukilon** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:03 pm

andy_g wrote:you're making some massive assumptions for starters. how exactly do these undefined special benefits for immigrants result in lost opportunities for others? how do you conclude that 'people' (which people?) don't trust 'flat' currencies anymore?

taxation in itself is a fair and just system and is vital for any society to function. whether its financial taxation or a contribution of time and effort. society doesn't actually owe us anything, its not our mum and dad and we should be contributing to the provision of services and the protection of those less fortunate. of course, our taxes aren't always used in the manner which we would like - doesn't mean that anyone is stealing from us though.

1.When an individual gets accepted to a university program "education is paid by taxes here" solely because they belong to a minority group and others not belonging to minority groups with higher grades are refused it limits those peoples chances in life. But they still need to pay for it. When someone gets a goverment job on the same premises the same applies.

2. Fiat currencies real value can be watched by how the markets and people treats them. In the last couple of decades the value of fiat money have gone down hill because people don't value it's value as much anymore and wants more fiat money for releasing true value. Metals, land, knowledge, salaries etc have skyrocketted. It's just recently though that normal people have started to discussing things like fractional reserve banking, monopoly of currency in state by the goverment and in some instances even the world "The US will use force if countries wants to sell oil in other currencies than dollar". Those countries have realised that the dollar have no value except "the force to back it up". In many countries they don't even accept fiat money and want gold and other things instead. Why aren't people free to use whatever currency they want in a country?

3. One should be allowed to freely choose if they want to belong to society or not. Ofcourse if you choose not to you shouldn't be allowed to use it's benefits or need to pay for it. We are back to the idea that people have the right to live their own lives without interference as long as that person doesn't physically hurt someone else or their property.

4. Taxation is fair and just if people wants to use that system. You shouldn't be able to force it onto people. In my utopia people would probably join freely together to pay for roads via taxes or contributions. A judicial system perhaps? A police force and an army? Don't expect to get help if you don't help with the costs though.

by **RedAnt** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:18 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:I don't think (correct me if i'm wrong) that "puff's" would be offended.

"Poof's" however...

Dang spell checker

by **andy_g** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:46 pm

Kukilon wrote:
andy_g wrote:you're making some massive assumptions for starters. how exactly do these undefined special benefits for immigrants result in lost opportunities for others? how do you conclude that 'people' (which people?) don't trust 'flat' currencies anymore?

taxation in itself is a fair and just system and is vital for any society to function. whether its financial taxation or a contribution of time and effort. society doesn't actually owe us anything, its not our mum and dad and we should be contributing to the provision of services and the protection of those less fortunate. of course, our taxes aren't always used in the manner which we would like - doesn't mean that anyone is stealing from us though.

1.When an individual gets accepted to a university program "education is paid by taxes here" solely because they belong to a minority group and others not belonging to minority groups with higher grades are refused it limits those peoples chances in life. But they still need to pay for it. When someone gets a goverment job on the same premises the same applies.

2. Fiat currencies real value can be watched by how the markets and people treats them. In the last couple of decades the value of fiat money have gone down hill because people don't value it's value as much anymore and wants more fiat money for releasing true value. Metals, land, knowledge, salaries etc have skyrocketted. It's just recently though that normal people have started to discussing things like fractional reserve banking, monopoly of currency in state by the goverment and in some instances even the world "The US will use force if countries wants to sell oil in other currencies than dollar". Those countries have realised that the dollar have no value except "the force to back it up". In many countries they don't even accept fiat money and want gold and other things instead. Why aren't people free to use whatever currency they want in a country?

3. One should be allowed to freely choose if they want to belong to society or not. Ofcourse if you choose not to you shouldn't be allowed to use it's benefits or need to pay for it. We are back to the idea that people have the right to live their own lives without interference as long as that person doesn't physically hurt someone else or their property.

4. Taxation is fair and just if people wants to use that system. You shouldn't be able to force it onto people. In my utopia people would probably join freely together to pay for roads via taxes or contributions. A judicial system perhaps? A police force and an army? Don't expect to get help if you don't help with the costs though.

1. from the experience i have had teaching in universities that's not at all true. granted, there are special cases and support for minorities when it is proven that those minorities would normally have reduced options. i've never seen them actually take places that higher grade students would normally get. universities will happily take high grade students and don't actually care if the fee comes from the government or the student's parents.

2. "In the last couple of decades the value of fiat money have gone down hill because people don't value it's value as much anymore and wants more fiat money for releasing true value. "

what the fúck does this mean? countries where real money is not used anymore are mostly countries in advanced states of civil war or other circumstances where society is collapsing.

3. you can choose not to be part of society if you like. but you will have to choose never to use a public highway, receive any kind of health care, watch the BBC or stand under a street light to name just a few. if you do you'd be a hypocrite and stealing other people's tax money for your own needs without any contribution in return.

4. your talking about some version of anarchist socialism. its a beautiful dream but sadly it ain't never gonna happen.

by **Kukilon** » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:08 am

andy_g wrote:
Kukilon wrote:
andy_g wrote:you're making some massive assumptions for starters. how exactly do these undefined special benefits for immigrants result in lost opportunities for others? how do you conclude that 'people' (which people?) don't trust 'flat' currencies anymore?

taxation in itself is a fair and just system and is vital for any society to function. whether its financial taxation or a contribution of time and effort. society doesn't actually owe us anything, its not our mum and dad and we should be contributing to the provision of services and the protection of those less fortunate. of course, our taxes aren't always used in the manner which we would like - doesn't mean that anyone is stealing from us though.

1.When an individual gets accepted to a university program "education is paid by taxes here" solely because they belong to a minority group and others not belonging to minority groups with higher grades are refused it limits those peoples chances in life. But they still need to pay for it. When someone gets a goverment job on the same premises the same applies.

2. Fiat currencies real value can be watched by how the markets and people treats them. In the last couple of decades the value of fiat money have gone down hill because people don't value it's value as much anymore and wants more fiat money for releasing true value. Metals, land, knowledge, salaries etc have skyrocketted. It's just recently though that normal people have started to discussing things like fractional reserve banking, monopoly of currency in state by the goverment and in some instances even the world "The US will use force if countries wants to sell oil in other currencies than dollar". Those countries have realised that the dollar have no value except "the force to back it up". In many countries they don't even accept fiat money and want gold and other things instead. Why aren't people free to use whatever currency they want in a country?

3. One should be allowed to freely choose if they want to belong to society or not. Ofcourse if you choose not to you shouldn't be allowed to use it's benefits or need to pay for it. We are back to the idea that people have the right to live their own lives without interference as long as that person doesn't physically hurt someone else or their property.

4. Taxation is fair and just if people wants to use that system. You shouldn't be able to force it onto people. In my utopia people would probably join freely together to pay for roads via taxes or contributions. A judicial system perhaps? A police force and an army? Don't expect to get help if you don't help with the costs though.

1. from the experience i have had teaching in universities that's not at all true. granted, there are special cases and support for minorities when it is proven that those minorities would normally have reduced options. i've never seen them actually take places that higher grade students would normally get. universities will happily take high grade students and don't actually care if the fee comes from the government or the student's parents.

2. "In the last couple of decades the value of fiat money have gone down hill because people don't value it's value as much anymore and wants more fiat money for releasing true value. "

what the fúck does this mean? countries where real money is not used anymore are mostly countries in advanced states of civil war or other circumstances where society is collapsing.

3. you can choose not to be part of society if you like. but you will have to choose never to use a public highway, receive any kind of health care, watch the BBC or stand under a street light to name just a few. if you do you'd be a hypocrite and stealing other people's tax money for your own needs without any contribution in return.

4. your talking about some version of anarchist socialism. its a beautiful dream but sadly it ain't never gonna happen.

1. Welcome to Sweden then because here it happens.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1830 "This was when I actually studied law at that faculty. This one was so blatant that even our supreme court couldn't accept it. Quite funny that it could happen at the countrys "finest" law faculty."

More recently we have had verdicts that have gone the other way especially when the discriminated individuals have been white males from Sweden.

This is newest one. http://www.thelocal.se/37338/20111114/ "What they miss is that it's really easy to get in if you are a woman with a none swedish heritage you need to score even lower but that issue was to sensitive. The case was thrown out because according to the them the judicial system was not allowed into that area of society. An easy way of getting out of it".

2. That because you will end up in jail if you use other sorts of currencies. The US for example http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/486.html. Not to long ago the US confiscated all gold belonging to US citizens. The value of all fiat currencies have gone down in value and it's easy to find charts of it on the net if you want to look. If you want to learn something about this drop in value you can youtube fractional reserve banking, fiat money and socialized losses in the credit industry. Pretty much explains the reason behind it.

3. I'm not allowed to choose if I want to belong to a society or not because the tax man will hunt me down and use legalized violence to get me to conform. If I would be allowed to choose for myself and still used those services I would consider myself a hypocrite. The legality of it is another issue.

4. Socialism? I hold libertarian views with an anarchistic twitch.

I have actually bought almost 900 "10-20 times as much would have been great but the money is needed elsewhere" acres of forrest in an area with no poulation where I will make my stand. I also have four small run down apartment houses that in reality should be bulldozed but I think I will save them for people that just needs a mailbox. =) We will see how it turns out. The local goverment in that area is dirt poor and they are loosing inhabitants every year. My idea is to make a break away municipality sort of like a tax haven. The normal municipality tax in Sweden is around 30%. The thing is that the municipality decides a lot but by law it also have to take care of a lot things which means the typical socialized welfare BS. I can't decide who enters my municipality but if I own all land I can choose who lives there which makes it possible for me to avoid all people smooching of the others. By law I can't refuse people certain services but I can end their renting contracts which will make them have to move away. In the beginning I think only people that wants to avoid their municipality tax will find it interesting and live there on paper.

English is not my native language so sometimes I have a hard time explaining myself with it.

by **RedAnt** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:12 pm

Yesterdays match kinda highlights what I was talking about here. Forced to shake a mans hand for fear of how the masses might view us is politcal correctness gone mad, and there's no liberty or democracy involved. It really is tyranny to say "You must shake his hand. It's what I believe. You must conform wether you share my beliefs or not"

Suarez didn't conform to the masses. He stood by his beliefs in this democractic country.

by **Kukilon** » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:48 pm

RedAnt wrote:Yesterdays match kinda highlights what I was talking about here. Forced to shake a mans hand for fear of how the masses might view us is politcal correctness gone mad, and there's no liberty or democracy involved. It really is tyranny to say "You must shake his hand. It's what I believe. You must conform wether you share my beliefs or not"

Suarez didn't conform to the masses. He stood by his beliefs in this democractic country.

I totally agree.

One of my idols for just standing up to people.

http://www.fasena.de/courage/images/021.jpg

Once a part of the status quo but when faced with reality he stood his ground. August Landmesser married to a jewish woman in Hitlers Germany refuses to heil and celebrate the construction of a naval warship. Sentenced to dishonoring his race because of his marriage to a jewish woman. His wife was sent to a concentration camp and died and their kids was placed in foster care. My only wish for him would have been to taken a few of those :censored:

down with him.

:buttrock

by **RedAnt** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:16 am

Kukilon wrote:
RedAnt wrote:Yesterdays match kinda highlights what I was talking about here. Forced to shake a mans hand for fear of how the masses might view us is politcal correctness gone mad, and there's no liberty or democracy involved. It really is tyranny to say "You must shake his hand. It's what I believe. You must conform wether you share my beliefs or not"

Suarez didn't conform to the masses. He stood by his beliefs in this democractic country.

I totally agree.

One of my idols for just standing up to people.

http://www.fasena.de/courage/images/021.jpg

Once a part of the status quo but when faced with reality he stood his ground. August Landmesser married to a jewish woman in Hitlers Germany refuses to heil and celebrate the construction of a naval warship. Sentenced to dishonoring his race because of his marriage to a jewish woman. His wife was sent to a concentration camp and died and their kids was placed in foster care. My only wish for him would have been to taken a few of those down with him.

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