I've been looking at the mancs' record in Europe, well all the English clubs Champions League records, and I've been wondering why they could have been so dominant in the league and yet barely made an impression on Europe. Maybe it's because the European referees are less favourable to the mancs, penalty decisions not always favouring them and all the things that go for the mancs week in, week out just don't go for them in Europe. One manc on the BBC boards claimed they were "unlucky", shite is a more popular verison from Liverpool fans. It isn't like they haven't spent £100m+ on building an expensive squad and who knows how much goes on bribing refs. While it is true the Champions League is a cup competition it is still a tough competition and the biggest clubs in Europe all want to win it. fergie will go a deep scarlet colour if we do win in Athens, Rafa will have done in three seasons what he couldn't do with his £100ms and 20 odd years in charge. In fact Rafa has already bested him with two finals appearances regardless. It might have been better had we not qualified for Europe the season after the Champions League win, give us a chance to concentrate on the Premiership. Just think, without the extra FOURTEEN fixtures just to get knocked out in the last sixteen we could have got a lot closer to the league title. That and the Club World Championship even if it was just two games. Note the mancs fell flat on their faces when they tried their luck there, funny how often that happens without English refs!
Do you think there is something to it? It's not like the big European clubs such as Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus and Milan aren't as good in Europe as they are domestically. A lot of mancs are dismissing the Champions League as a joke, of course it is the nature of children to rubbish anything that they can't get the hang of.
Why LFC triumphs in Europe - And why others fail - Ref standards?
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by redtrader74 » Thu May 03, 2007 8:54 pm
The mancs have an advantage with refs because, along with alot of people in football, they are worried about what Rudolph will say. He has been about so long that people are intimidated by him, it's the same in any organisation. All the commentators fawn over him like he's their old uncle, fighting off 'Jonny foreigner' managers.
We have all seen how they barrack refs, (i know other teams do aswell, but these get away with it.) refs are people and we know that some people are strong mentally, most are not, and they are influenced.
Btw Old red face may be many things but no one regards him to be a highly tactical manager, they rely on going at teams all the time hoping for mistakes.That doesn't always work with better managers and players.
The 5h1te also have the advantage of the biggest crowds, and again having a mixture of 70k geriatrics and Japanese shouting at you must be more daunting than being at wigan or fulham. Refs also know that this game will get the most coverage.
Having more England and English speaking players could also be an advantage, they've known ref for years and built up a rapport. We've all seen matches where you know a yellow is coming and the ref will always give it to a no name, usually foreign player.
I don't think it's deliberate, nor do i believe it always happens (no i do!) but if it only give them a 2-3% advantage it can be the difference in winning titles or not. Whereas these 'advantages' are nothing special in Europe and they are part of the pack.
We have all seen how they barrack refs, (i know other teams do aswell, but these get away with it.) refs are people and we know that some people are strong mentally, most are not, and they are influenced.
Btw Old red face may be many things but no one regards him to be a highly tactical manager, they rely on going at teams all the time hoping for mistakes.That doesn't always work with better managers and players.
The 5h1te also have the advantage of the biggest crowds, and again having a mixture of 70k geriatrics and Japanese shouting at you must be more daunting than being at wigan or fulham. Refs also know that this game will get the most coverage.
Having more England and English speaking players could also be an advantage, they've known ref for years and built up a rapport. We've all seen matches where you know a yellow is coming and the ref will always give it to a no name, usually foreign player.
I don't think it's deliberate, nor do i believe it always happens (no i do!) but if it only give them a 2-3% advantage it can be the difference in winning titles or not. Whereas these 'advantages' are nothing special in Europe and they are part of the pack.
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by Bad Bob » Thu May 03, 2007 9:30 pm
It's not the refs at all. Ferguson's said it himself...it's the fact that the Premiership doesn't do enough to ensure that Man U does well in Europe! 
That kind of comment makes him look as big a t!t as Mourinho and makes me even prouder that we have a manager that does not resort to such desperate, self-entitled rubbish to explain a big loss. What a clown! 
That kind of comment makes him look as big a t!t as Mourinho and makes me even prouder that we have a manager that does not resort to such desperate, self-entitled rubbish to explain a big loss. What a clown! 
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by RUSHIE#9 » Thu May 03, 2007 9:41 pm
Bad Bob wrote:It's not the refs at all. Ferguson's said it himself...it's the fact that the Premiership doesn't do enough to ensure that Man U does well in Europe!
When I heard him say that I couldn't figure out what the feck he was on about. They kicked off at 12.45 last saturday so thats given them more time to prepare for the return leg. If they'd reached the final and hadn't been in the F A Cup final hen they'd have had more time than Milan are going to have. We've had midweek games over here that have allowed the leaugue to be finished a full 10 days before the final unlike many other leagues across europe.
Talkin bollox as usual.
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by Bad Bob » Thu May 03, 2007 9:50 pm
RUSHIE#9 wrote:Bad Bob wrote:It's not the refs at all. Ferguson's said it himself...it's the fact that the Premiership doesn't do enough to ensure that Man U does well in Europe!
When I heard him say that I couldn't figure out what the feck he was on about. They kicked off at 12.45 last saturday so thats given them more time to prepare for the return leg. If they'd reached the final and hadn't been in the F A Cup final hen they'd have had more time than Milan are going to have. We've had midweek games over here that have allowed the leaugue to be finished a full 10 days before the final unlike many other leagues across europe.
Talkin bollox as usual.
Yer, and he was complaining about the timing of the Manchester derby this coming weekend, as if that had any bearing on how they did in Milan. It's not like they had to rest players last night in preparation for the "early" derby!
The thing that really stinks about these comments is that they are focused on how the league hasn't done enough to help them do well in Europe. He clearly couldn't give a monkeys about us or Chelsea in that regard--it's only about them. What a buffoon. On the other hand, at least he was honest enough to admit who were the better team on the night, unlike a certain serial moaner!
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by redtrader74 » Thu May 03, 2007 9:53 pm
Essentially he is saying to man city,
i know we have more players than you,
we have more money than you,
we have better players than you,
we have a better manager than you,
we are your biggest game,
but we don't think it is fair that on this occassion you might just have a small advantage in one respect because some of my players are a bit tired. No journo / hack will put that to him.
The funny thing is that he has attempted to rest players through the season, so this tired cr@p is just that.
i know we have more players than you,
we have more money than you,
we have better players than you,
we have a better manager than you,
we are your biggest game,
but we don't think it is fair that on this occassion you might just have a small advantage in one respect because some of my players are a bit tired.
No journo / hack will put that to him.The funny thing is that he has attempted to rest players through the season, so this tired cr@p is just that.
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by Sabre » Thu May 03, 2007 10:16 pm
Jon Doe's comment about the place of this thread has a point, IMHO. I think though, this thread might fit in the general discussion area with another name, as it would be interesting to comment ref's standards and how affects the game.
Would you agree to move it? Or shall we rename it to a more general analysis of ref's standards? you decide. (Owzat if you have suggestions tell me so, please)
I think their failure has nothing to do with refs directly in the sense of being favoured... I can't be ársed to watch that ordinary team's game in the premiership, so I can't tell if they are favoured or not. THe refs that judge Liverpool games are decent, AFAICT, with some mistakes for, and some mistakes against, as you could expect. I assume it's the same for the others.
Ferguson arguement is a loser's arguement. The premiership has more than decent teams. But it's a different game. I'd like to have one of the Owzat's statistics when it comes to number of interruptions and free kicks situations in a game:
A free kick situation is not only the chance to cross and finnish, it also gives the chance for the opposition place properly again in the pitch. In Spain there are many set pieces situations, and to master them is fundamental. Rafa showed he has a wide range of tactics for this in the Agger goal.
Some tacklings allowed in England are not allowed in Europe, and some contacts neither. Fouls are given easily, and many midfielders look for an easy foul, to regain order again in the team. In England they'd be dispossesed and the game would continue.
Remember Drogba in Stamford Bridge. Merks (?) reffed the game as an english ref, and Drogba made what he wanted almost.
Remember Drogba in Anfield. The Ref conceded many fouls in favour of Carraguer, as Drogba's contact wasn't legal. The Ref was Spaniard, and Anfield was happy with the decissions. Drogba in Spain would struggle more than other more skillful strikers, as his contact routine and movements would be very punnished (Ask Kovacevic, or Zigic, the masters of fouls against them).
European game is as fast as the English game in the top leagues. But has a lot of interruptions. And that makes a lot of difference.
Ferguson should analyse what when wrong, rather than moaning about the premiership. Because Mourinho and Benitez doesn't have to seem the same problem and they play in the same league. Too old to learn perhaps? I don't know.
Would you agree to move it? Or shall we rename it to a more general analysis of ref's standards? you decide. (Owzat if you have suggestions tell me so, please)
I think their failure has nothing to do with refs directly in the sense of being favoured... I can't be ársed to watch that ordinary team's game in the premiership, so I can't tell if they are favoured or not. THe refs that judge Liverpool games are decent, AFAICT, with some mistakes for, and some mistakes against, as you could expect. I assume it's the same for the others.
Ferguson arguement is a loser's arguement. The premiership has more than decent teams. But it's a different game. I'd like to have one of the Owzat's statistics when it comes to number of interruptions and free kicks situations in a game:
A free kick situation is not only the chance to cross and finnish, it also gives the chance for the opposition place properly again in the pitch. In Spain there are many set pieces situations, and to master them is fundamental. Rafa showed he has a wide range of tactics for this in the Agger goal.
Some tacklings allowed in England are not allowed in Europe, and some contacts neither. Fouls are given easily, and many midfielders look for an easy foul, to regain order again in the team. In England they'd be dispossesed and the game would continue.
Remember Drogba in Stamford Bridge. Merks (?) reffed the game as an english ref, and Drogba made what he wanted almost.
Remember Drogba in Anfield. The Ref conceded many fouls in favour of Carraguer, as Drogba's contact wasn't legal. The Ref was Spaniard, and Anfield was happy with the decissions. Drogba in Spain would struggle more than other more skillful strikers, as his contact routine and movements would be very punnished (Ask Kovacevic, or Zigic, the masters of fouls against them).
European game is as fast as the English game in the top leagues. But has a lot of interruptions. And that makes a lot of difference.
Ferguson should analyse what when wrong, rather than moaning about the premiership. Because Mourinho and Benitez doesn't have to seem the same problem and they play in the same league. Too old to learn perhaps? I don't know.
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by redtrader74 » Thu May 03, 2007 10:25 pm
rename it, a discussion on refs, and /or whether they are influenced, and by what. Where LFC are not as cynical, and why not, maybe
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by Sabre » Thu May 03, 2007 10:32 pm
I have renamed the thread to a more proper one, but as you know it might have english mistakes, correct me if I'm wrong.
Now, let's discuss about football.
Now, let's discuss about football.
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by J*o*n*D*o*e » Thu May 03, 2007 11:05 pm
changing the title does little to alter the content of the original post, its still discussing manure in europe.
its in the wrong place, infact i would go as far as saying who the hell gives a flying fook why the scum are scrap in europe, thank fook they are and long may it continue.
ill tell you why there
, because they have no soul or heart, there driven by greed and followed by sheep
its in the wrong place, infact i would go as far as saying who the hell gives a flying fook why the scum are scrap in europe, thank fook they are and long may it continue.
ill tell you why there
, because they have no soul or heart, there driven by greed and followed by sheep
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