Liverpool FC Forum

[Reg]

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
The Obituary follows:

Born 1776, Died 2012 ?
It doesn't hurt to read this several times.
++

We're doomed.... marooned....

[Boocity]

Yes democracy stinks, we could go back to having a King or Queen with absolute power then if they muck it up lop off there heads aka Charles I or Louis XVI.

Saying all that democracy is the best we have at present but politicians should be more accountable, look at the mess Bush and Blair made of the world and they just walk away making loads of money on the speech circuit.

[Kenny Kan]

Saying all that democracy is the best we have at present but politicians should be more accountable, look at the mess Bush and Blair made of the world and they just walk away making loads of money on the speech circuit.

I don't think democracy can be laid to blame because of Bush and Blair. Every form of government whether it be communist to democratic are able to go to war. And really how can the general public be held accountable if they voted to go to war (democratic way) when they have no inclination about reasons and intelligence of why they should go to war. So, really you could say it was a socialistic approach by Blair that took us to war.

As for loose fiscal policy, well yes that's plausible but isn't that just as much to do with capitalism?  However,  if we never learnt anything under the tragic economic era of Thatcher, then we won't learn anything now.

Quantitative Easing is the Bank of England's method on helping the governments fiscal policy, to improve growth. They can't lower interest rates any less as they are already too fecking low! But the truth of the matter is, QE is basically a new tax the likes of Joe bloe will have to fork out.

[worcester_red]

Who says that we're living in a democracy ;-)

[metalhead]

Who says that we're living in a democracy ;-)

exactly

[Kenny Kan]

Who says that we're living in a democracy ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The top 4 spots are all occupied by Scandinavian countries.

Britain rolls in at 19th.

[Reg]

Are we confusing capitalism with democracy here?

[SouthCoastShankly]

Interesting reg.

My only point of concern is that I don't feel we will follow the pattern into a dictatorship. Back when these 200 year cycles of dictatorship to democracy and back again happened, dictatorship was "accepted". Nowadays after the world wars and other wars that have involved ousting dictators, dictatorship would never be allowed again.

[metalhead]

Interesting reg.

My only point of concern is that I don't feel we will follow the pattern into a dictatorship. Back when these 200 year cycles of dictatorship to democracy and back again happened, dictatorship was "accepted". Nowadays after the world wars and other wars that have involved ousting dictators, dictatorship would never be allowed again.

Not so sure

[Kenny Kan]

Interesting reg.

My only point of concern is that I don't feel we will follow the pattern into a dictatorship. Back when these 200 year cycles of dictatorship to democracy and back again happened, dictatorship was "accepted". Nowadays after the world wars and other wars that have involved ousting dictators, dictatorship would never be allowed again.

Not so sure

He's talking about Britain, not the desert plains.

[Boocity]

With the system in the UK, when a political party gets a landslide like Labour did having a majority of a couple of hundred, that's virtually a dictatorship

[andy_g]

surely if a party wins a landslide victory its the exact opposite of a dictatorship, as its what the vast majority of people have voted for. or am i missing something?

bam, i don't agree with your statement about it being a socialistic approach to war by blair. despite the fact that he came to power with a vast majority his popularity was on the wane by the time he decided to go to war. in fact polls showed that very few labour supporters and even hardcore blairites supported the idea.

i do agree with the fact that what we are living now in the so called democratic countries is not exactly democracy. if only i had a plan for how to deal with it...

[Boocity]

surely if a party wins a landslide victory its the exact opposite of a dictatorship, as its what the vast majority of people have voted for. or am i missing something?

Even dictators have the support of the majority, look at Hitler when he came to power.

What I mean is that if the governing party has a landslide then the opposition (including within own party) is so weakened the government can push through virtually anything they want and that's just like a dictatorship

[ethanr]

Every type of government has an ideal state.  Man's natural greed makes it so we never see that happen.  Look at communism... The idea was that everybody would work to help the country flourish, and in return everybody would be treated equally, and could live prosperously.  The greed of those who controlled communist countries ensured this never happened because they wanted the power and they wanted the money.

Democratic countries seem to keep people from controlling too much, but in reality there is always a bit of dictatorship-like properties.  Certain people or groups of people end up running the country, and they run it in a way that makes them prosper.  Why would presidents run for president when it takes millions of dollars of their own money, and they only get paid 200k a year?  Because they know when they are in power everybody will be lining up to get something from them, and they will get plenty in return.  When Cheney was vice president all of our weapons contracts went thru the company he owned.  If I'm not mistaken, his fortune increase 80 times from the 8 years he was in office.

People are greedy, so the idealistic government will never work 100%.  People will always take advantage.  I don't think Democracy will fall.  Governments fell in the past because they were much more flawed, but more importantly they couldn't hide the flaws like our governments can today.  We are much more advanced technologically, and I believe things will stay the same for a long time.  We have a system that "works", so we won't get rid of it.

[Kenny Kan]

The thread starter made democracy the 'straw man' in this thread.

i do agree with the fact that what we are living now in the so called democratic countries is not exactly democracy

You could say the same about communism or any other political ideal andy - none are "true" or "pure" forms if we look at it that way.