Liverpool FC Forum

If we continue with the 4-3-3, Which is a formation I dont think we have the personnel for, we'll continue to see players out of position more often than not.

To begin with, the formation is designed to get the best out of our midfield duo of Henderson & Milner. For me, that highlights the fact we lack a dominant CM rather than it indicating the possibility of us having two top attacking CMs who need a bit more freedom going forward.

In the 2 wide forward slots, we'll see all of Lallana, Ibe, Markovic, Coutinho, Firmino + Origi, Ings, Borini, Balotelli, Sturridge competing for the 2 spots.

Not sure how that would get the best out of our top 3 or 4 players when everyone is fit. Benteke would play the CF role but all of Sturridge, Coutinho & Firmino would not be playing in their best positions... and that is IF they all make it to the starting 11.

aCe' » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:24 pm wrote:If we continue with the 4-3-3, Which is a formation I dont think we have the personnel for, we'll continue to see players out of position more often than not.

To begin with, the formation is designed to get the best out of our midfield duo of Henderson & Milner. For me, that highlights the fact we lack a dominant CM rather than it indicating the possibility of us having two top attacking CMs who need a bit more freedom going forward.

In the 2 wide forward slots, we'll see all of Lallana, Ibe, Markovic, Coutinho, Firmino + Origi, Ings, Borini, Balotelli, Sturridge competing for the 2 spots.

Not sure how that would get the best out of our top 3 or 4 players when everyone is fit. Benteke would play the CF role but all of Sturridge, Coutinho & Firmino would not be playing in their best positions... and that is IF they all make it to the starting 11.

I expect 4-3-3 when sturridge is injured.

And 4-4-2 Diamond formation when Bentake and Sturridge are fit.

Either way...we have $hitload of attacking midfielders.....

We still need a Gerrard replacement.

We also need an upgrade on Mignolet, 8m for Begovic and we didn't even go for him, who would have been a massive upgrade.

Also ***** off that we didn't go for Cabaye, he is better than all of our midfielders we have, would have been a star signing.

so we still need:

1) Left back (Moreno is terribe)
2) GK
3) striker
4)midfielder (better than henderson, milner, allen, lucas and Can)

metalhead » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:24 am wrote:We still need a Gerrard replacement.

We also need an upgrade on Mignolet, 8m for Begovic and we didn't even go for him, who would have been a massive upgrade.

Also ***** off that we didn't go for Cabaye, he is better than all of our midfielders we have, would have been a star signing.

so we still need:

1) Left back (Moreno is terribe)
2) GK
3) striker
4)midfielder (better than henderson, milner, allen, lucas and Can)

Agree with everything you said Metalhead, pity our manager doesn't have a shred of common sense to go for those players and would rather blow the money on another target man. We desperately need a quality centre mid who can pass, a GK is also as essential as Mignolet is at best average, left back we are desperately weak as Moreno is rubbish and Enrique has been frozen out and obviously a striker.

Fowler_E7 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:03 am wrote:

metalhead » Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:24 am wrote:We still need a Gerrard replacement.

We also need an upgrade on Mignolet, 8m for Begovic and we didn't even go for him, who would have been a massive upgrade.

Also ***** off that we didn't go for Cabaye, he is better than all of our midfielders we have, would have been a star signing.

so we still need:

1) Left back (Moreno is terribe)
2) GK
3) striker
4)midfielder (better than henderson, milner, allen, lucas and Can)

Agree with everything you said Metalhead, pity our manager doesn't have a shred of common sense to go for those players and would rather blow the money on another target man. We desperately need a quality centre mid who can pass, a GK is also as essential as Mignolet is at best average, left back we are desperately weak as Moreno is rubbish and Enrique has been frozen out and obviously a striker.

I've been feeling underwhelmed with our signings so far mate, I still can't believe we didn't go for Cabaye, for 13m he would have been a steal and would have preferred us over Crystal Palace. I guess we will see what happens, and I hope we are proven wrong and Rodgers makes us eat humble pie.

But to be honest, and as much as I want to be optimistic and rosy, I can't, Firminio so far is the one I have high hopes on.

In an ideal world we still need a defensive midfielder. Can't see it happening though.

stmichael » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:53 pm wrote:In an ideal world we still need a defensive midfielder. Can't see it happening though.

I'm completely bemused that the current managers most utilised formations are  4141, 3421,433  and are all arguably  dependant on the inclusion of a DM ,and yet every season passes by without making a quality acquisition for that specific role .


Or perhaps more worryingly  he shuns the best option open to us by continually omitting Lucas ,I personally don't feel its a case of needing a DM in an Ideal world mate more a general perspective from the common sense community.

Surely Can will play as the deepest midfielder with Lucas as backup. Can has the potential to be a beast of a midfielder but only if we give him games. He deserves a chance.

JC_81 » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:45 pm wrote:Surely Can will play as the deepest midfielder with Lucas as backup. Can has the potential to be a beast of a midfielder but only if we give him games. He deserves a chance.

God knows....given BR's track record, Can will start against Stoke in goal

stmichael » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:53 pm wrote:In an ideal world we still need a defensive midfielder. Can't see it happening though.

The notion that the ideal way to play is with a specialist DM is not backed by any known evidence in football.

Not one shred of credible, scientific evidence!

Apart from the fact almost every successful team plays with one CM who is tasked with being the deepest lying midfield player. The number 6 role has been around for as long as I can remember and it doesn’t have to be some brute ploughing through people. But it does require someone with a high degree of defensive intelligence, something the likes of Gerrard, Henderson and Milner don’t have. Lucus is by far the best option in our squad followed by Allen. Can may well be better than both of them and has said it’s his best position and it’s also the role he is predominantly given when playing for the Germany U21 side. But we won’t know until he is given a few games in that role.

Pig Catcher » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:36 pm wrote:Apart from the fact almost every successful team plays with one CM who is tasked with being the deepest lying midfield player. The number 6 role has been around for as long as I can remember and it doesn’t have to be some brute ploughing through people. But it does require someone with a high degree of defensive intelligence, something the likes of Gerrard, Henderson and Milner don’t have. Lucus is by far the best option in our squad followed by Allen. Can may well be better than both of them and has said it’s his best position and it’s also the role he is predominantly given when playing for the Germany U21 side. But we won’t know until he is given a few games in that role.

The deepest lying CM in Juve, the CL finalist was Pirlo. The deepest lying CM at Madrid last season was Kroos.

You don't have to have a DM in front of the back four to be successful. Some teams approach the issue differently, by placing emphasis on control.

But Pirlo and Kroos have a high degree of defensive intelligence. They both read the passing lanes really well and naturally know which line to hold when defending rather than standing on the toes of their centre backs every time the opposition enter their half. 

The “controller” role (or number 6) that Rodgers often refers to still requires those qualities I mention above. You can’t just put your best ball player there regardless because if they don’t have the right defensive intelligence your centre backs and full backs will constantly be exposed and be working overtime. This is the reason our defence has looked shambolic over the last couple of seasons. Our excellent defensive run last not only coincided with us switching to three at the back, but it was also the only time Lucus had a run in the side.

If you combine Lucus and Gerrard in the controller role you get Alonso. I don’t see anyone in the world better than him in that role in the world so think it was mad of Madrid to move him on. He and Modric was a world class partnership. Two players who have good defensive qualities combined with the ability to play a range of forward passes.

Pig Catcher » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:07 pm wrote:But Pirlo and Kroos have a high degree of defensive intelligence. They both read the passing lanes really well and naturally know which line to hold when defending rather than standing on the toes of their centre backs every time the opposition enter their half. 

The “controller” role (or number 6) that Rodgers often refers to still requires those qualities I mention above. You can’t just put your best ball player there regardless because if they don’t have the right defensive intelligence your centre backs and full backs will constantly be exposed and be working overtime. This is the reason our defence has looked shambolic over the last couple of seasons. Our excellent defensive run last not only coincided with us switching to three at the back, but it was also the only time Lucus had a run in the side.

If you combine Lucus and Gerrard in the controller role you get Alonso. I don’t see anyone in the world better than him in that role in the world so think it was mad of Madrid to move him on. He and Modric was a world class partnership. Two players who have good defensive qualities combined with the ability to play a range of forward passes.

Yes it requires ability to read passing lanes, but it also requires the presence of 'two bodyguards' in the case of Pirlo.

The ability to control the game in that position does not have to be embodied in one person, a la Alonso. It can be the result of a combination of factors/qualities, from the individual to the nature of the team organization/tactics.

What I quarrel with is this reflexive notion that you have to have a specialist DM to be able to be effective.

That is not supported by any known scientific evidence in football, and is the reason u are struggling here to articulate a credible response...

You'd imagine Milner will be an upgrade on the 2015 version of Steven Gerrard so in theory our midfield should be better than last year. I know that's not exactly saying much but at least it is a step in the right direction.