Liverpool FC Forum

I have to admit I was blown away by his performance against City, he absolutely monstered that midfield and him going off was partly the reason why we conceded 2 goals late.

I don't think I have seen such a devastating performance as his first 20 minutes in that game, he was everywhere and City struggled to move the ball forward when he was around the ball!

That being said he has been so hit and miss over the last few years it makes you wonder why we haven't seen consistent performances like what we saw a few days ago. The lad has the talent and the physique to become one of the best defensive midfielders on the planet, but his aptitude and football intelligence has constantly let him down on the pitch. I have an inkling that this performance may be attributed to wanting to get the maximum paycheck at this next club, so you really have to question why he feels he needs to show this at the end of his tenure with us rather than throughout the time has been here? 

Klopp's game is very high tempo, maybe he simply doesn't have the fitness or concentration to maintain a high impact for 90 minutes.

VVD has a reputation for speed and fitness and yet he's suffering tight hamstrings after 3 weeks? Shows you how fit our lads currently are.

What dawned on me with the win over Citeh is that Klopp has succeeded in transforming LFC into his Borussia Dortmund team... we've arrived and it's a massive achievement. Klopp and his training team are massively under rated. Full credit to them.

Can without Henderson in the side. I've always had an issue with Can and Henderson (Lucas) playing together and as unfortunate as it is, Henderson's injury has done Can and the side as a whole a world of good.

There was a post on Reddit about this, interesting read:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/7r3560/emre_can_with_and_without_henderson/

"So, someone mentioned in a comment on a thread about Emre possibly renewing his contract with us that Emre Can is “wildly overrated on this sub”. Well, I didn’t think that was the case and so I started looking at match ratings and something caught my eye about the difference between Emre in midfield with Jordan Henderson starting next to him and without. It was interesting what I found. So here goes:

Bottom Line Up Front: My research shows that this season Emre Can is a consistently better player when he does not play alongside Jordan Henderson in the midfield. Not only that, but the team performs significantly better with only Emre Can as opposed to when they are paired together. I used a combined average player ratings from this sub, WhoScored and an app I use called FotMob.

I used Emre Can’s combined 23 starts this year in the EPL, UCL, FA Cup and UCL playoffs to crunch the numbers. One match omitted was the 5-1 victory of BHA where Emre Can played in a back 3. Just a weird outlier, though Emre Can performed really well, bagging a goal. I used an 8.5 for the sub’s rating of Emre’s performance in the Man City match since the results haven’t been posted yet (figured that was about right since most people recognized that he dominated much of that match).

**This sub scores Emre extremely low on almost every player rating. He received a 4.9 and 5.45 in matches where he had assists on goals that saved a point in both. I found him at the very bottom of the sub’s player ratings many times (win, draw or loss). He averages a rating of 6.21 on this sub as compared to 7.39 from WhoScored and 7.45 from FotMob in the matches I analyzed. I would wager you don’t see that sort of disparity with other regular starters. Anyway, I think we can dispel the “Emre Can is overrated on this sub” myth.

Here are the breakdowns of what I found:

Emre Can and Jordan Henderson started 10 matches in midfield together in all competitions (technically 11, but Hendo was subbed out in the 14’ of Arsenal away, so I counted that as an Emre Can midfield performance without Hendo). In those matches they started together Emre Can averaged a 6.64 player rating with a range of 4.98 (low) - 8.71 (high). There’s that inconsistent player we all groan about. The team scored 20 goals and conceded 20 goals in those matches (yikes!). The team had a record of 4 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses.

Emre Can started 13 matches in all competitions without Jordan Henderson next to him in midfield. In those matches Emre Can averages a 7.18 player rating with a ratings range of 6.5 (low) - 8.23 (high). The team scored 43 goals in those games and conceded 11 goals. The team had a record of 10 wins and 3 draws (no losses) in those matches.

Anyway, this isn’t to rag on Henderson as much as it is to show how different a player Can is when he’s not paired with Hendo and how much better the team is with only Can as opposed to Can and Hendo. I have no idea why - maybe Can just wants to do more of the things that Hendo likes to do. Obviously these numbers could be very misleading as I didn’t dive into who else was playing alongside Can in those matches, but the record and the goal/diff in those matches should tell us that a Can/Hendo midfield is not gonna win us any trophies this year.

If anyone wants a link to my Google Docs table where I crunched the numbers, I can probably work that out."

aCe' » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:30 pm wrote:Can without Henderson in the side. I've always had an issue with Can and Henderson (Lucas) playing together and as unfortunate as it is, Henderson's injury has done Can and the side as a whole a world of good.

There was a post on Reddit about this, interesting read:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/7r3560/emre_can_with_and_without_henderson/

"So, someone mentioned in a comment on a thread about Emre possibly renewing his contract with us that Emre Can is “wildly overrated on this sub”. Well, I didn’t think that was the case and so I started looking at match ratings and something caught my eye about the difference between Emre in midfield with Jordan Henderson starting next to him and without. It was interesting what I found. So here goes:

Bottom Line Up Front: My research shows that this season Emre Can is a consistently better player when he does not play alongside Jordan Henderson in the midfield. Not only that, but the team performs significantly better with only Emre Can as opposed to when they are paired together. I used a combined average player ratings from this sub, WhoScored and an app I use called FotMob.

I used Emre Can’s combined 23 starts this year in the EPL, UCL, FA Cup and UCL playoffs to crunch the numbers. One match omitted was the 5-1 victory of BHA where Emre Can played in a back 3. Just a weird outlier, though Emre Can performed really well, bagging a goal. I used an 8.5 for the sub’s rating of Emre’s performance in the Man City match since the results haven’t been posted yet (figured that was about right since most people recognized that he dominated much of that match).

**This sub scores Emre extremely low on almost every player rating. He received a 4.9 and 5.45 in matches where he had assists on goals that saved a point in both. I found him at the very bottom of the sub’s player ratings many times (win, draw or loss). He averages a rating of 6.21 on this sub as compared to 7.39 from WhoScored and 7.45 from FotMob in the matches I analyzed. I would wager you don’t see that sort of disparity with other regular starters. Anyway, I think we can dispel the “Emre Can is overrated on this sub” myth.

Here are the breakdowns of what I found:

Emre Can and Jordan Henderson started 10 matches in midfield together in all competitions (technically 11, but Hendo was subbed out in the 14’ of Arsenal away, so I counted that as an Emre Can midfield performance without Hendo). In those matches they started together Emre Can averaged a 6.64 player rating with a range of 4.98 (low) - 8.71 (high). There’s that inconsistent player we all groan about. The team scored 20 goals and conceded 20 goals in those matches (yikes!). The team had a record of 4 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses.

Emre Can started 13 matches in all competitions without Jordan Henderson next to him in midfield. In those matches Emre Can averages a 7.18 player rating with a ratings range of 6.5 (low) - 8.23 (high). The team scored 43 goals in those games and conceded 11 goals. The team had a record of 10 wins and 3 draws (no losses) in those matches.

Anyway, this isn’t to rag on Henderson as much as it is to show how different a player Can is when he’s not paired with Hendo and how much better the team is with only Can as opposed to Can and Hendo. I have no idea why - maybe Can just wants to do more of the things that Hendo likes to do. Obviously these numbers could be very misleading as I didn’t dive into who else was playing alongside Can in those matches, but the record and the goal/diff in those matches should tell us that a Can/Hendo midfield is not gonna win us any trophies this year.

If anyone wants a link to my Google Docs table where I crunched the numbers, I can probably work that out."

I think this kind of analysis has too small a sample size. Maybe if it is over a season or 2 it will show a more accurate picture. We all know that our attack is the main factor in determining the amount of goals scored. It seems to me sometimes our attacking players are not interdependent on our CM's. Heck most of the time, I dont even know what our CM's are doing. So the stat that we scored over 40 goals during the stretch that Can plays withoit Henderson maybe more because  our front 4 was starting to click...

maguskwt » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:59 am wrote:

aCe' » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:30 pm wrote:Can without Henderson in the side. I've always had an issue with Can and Henderson (Lucas) playing together and as unfortunate as it is, Henderson's injury has done Can and the side as a whole a world of good.

There was a post on Reddit about this, interesting read:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/7r3560/emre_can_with_and_without_henderson/

"So, someone mentioned in a comment on a thread about Emre possibly renewing his contract with us that Emre Can is “wildly overrated on this sub”. Well, I didn’t think that was the case and so I started looking at match ratings and something caught my eye about the difference between Emre in midfield with Jordan Henderson starting next to him and without. It was interesting what I found. So here goes:

Bottom Line Up Front: My research shows that this season Emre Can is a consistently better player when he does not play alongside Jordan Henderson in the midfield. Not only that, but the team performs significantly better with only Emre Can as opposed to when they are paired together. I used a combined average player ratings from this sub, WhoScored and an app I use called FotMob.

I used Emre Can’s combined 23 starts this year in the EPL, UCL, FA Cup and UCL playoffs to crunch the numbers. One match omitted was the 5-1 victory of BHA where Emre Can played in a back 3. Just a weird outlier, though Emre Can performed really well, bagging a goal. I used an 8.5 for the sub’s rating of Emre’s performance in the Man City match since the results haven’t been posted yet (figured that was about right since most people recognized that he dominated much of that match).

**This sub scores Emre extremely low on almost every player rating. He received a 4.9 and 5.45 in matches where he had assists on goals that saved a point in both. I found him at the very bottom of the sub’s player ratings many times (win, draw or loss). He averages a rating of 6.21 on this sub as compared to 7.39 from WhoScored and 7.45 from FotMob in the matches I analyzed. I would wager you don’t see that sort of disparity with other regular starters. Anyway, I think we can dispel the “Emre Can is overrated on this sub” myth.

Here are the breakdowns of what I found:

Emre Can and Jordan Henderson started 10 matches in midfield together in all competitions (technically 11, but Hendo was subbed out in the 14’ of Arsenal away, so I counted that as an Emre Can midfield performance without Hendo). In those matches they started together Emre Can averaged a 6.64 player rating with a range of 4.98 (low) - 8.71 (high). There’s that inconsistent player we all groan about. The team scored 20 goals and conceded 20 goals in those matches (yikes!). The team had a record of 4 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses.

Emre Can started 13 matches in all competitions without Jordan Henderson next to him in midfield. In those matches Emre Can averages a 7.18 player rating with a ratings range of 6.5 (low) - 8.23 (high). The team scored 43 goals in those games and conceded 11 goals. The team had a record of 10 wins and 3 draws (no losses) in those matches.

Anyway, this isn’t to rag on Henderson as much as it is to show how different a player Can is when he’s not paired with Hendo and how much better the team is with only Can as opposed to Can and Hendo. I have no idea why - maybe Can just wants to do more of the things that Hendo likes to do. Obviously these numbers could be very misleading as I didn’t dive into who else was playing alongside Can in those matches, but the record and the goal/diff in those matches should tell us that a Can/Hendo midfield is not gonna win us any trophies this year.

If anyone wants a link to my Google Docs table where I crunched the numbers, I can probably work that out."

I think this kind of analysis has too small a sample size. Maybe if it is over a season or 2 it will show a more accurate picture. We all know that our attack is the main factor in determining the amount of goals scored. It seems to me sometimes our attacking players are not interdependent on our CM's. Heck most of the time, I dont even know what our CM's are doing. So the stat that we scored over 40 goals during the stretch that Can plays withoit Henderson maybe more because  our front 4 was starting to click...

Forget about all the stats, whenever I see both names on the team sheet I know there is a good chance we f*ck the game up because one/both could be ineffective and it could end up costing us down both ends and more importantly in our build up play.

He confirmed just what level he's capable of achieving on Sunday the lad is a budding midfield general in the same mould as Ballack ,it would be complete madness if we let him go and retain the likes of Milner and Henderson 

Maybe it's his time now to get in gear and start hitting his potential. The last few months he has been playing very well and could eventually take the 6 role.

RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:32 pm wrote:He confirmed just what level he's capable of achieving on Sunday the lad is a budding midfield general in the same mould as Ballack ,it would be complete madness if we let him go and retain the likes of Milner and Henderson 

This

Didnt cover himself in glory tonight. Too many touches, too hesitant, lacked composure and control.
Bad day at the office

Thommo's perm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:51 pm wrote:Didnt cover himself in glory tonight. Too many touches, too hesitant, lacked composure and control.
Bad day at the office

Garbage is the word you're looking for..

Ghost of Shankly » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:59 pm wrote:

Thommo's perm » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:51 pm wrote:Didnt cover himself in glory tonight. Too many touches, too hesitant, lacked composure and control.
Bad day at the office

Garbage is the word you're looking for..

I'm sure I would have found it if I was...

I'm guessing making him captain was way of showing him that we want him to sign a new contract. Played like he had too much weight on his shoulders.

UvS xR4GEx » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:32 pm wrote:I'm guessing making him captain was way of showing him that we want him to sign a new contract. Played like he had too much weight on his shoulders.

Sounds like you have insider info on Klopp's cunning plan there, Baldrick.. 

Im really annoyed that we are unsure of his intentions. Give him an ultimatum: "sign or fu'ck off"?

Thommo's perm » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:04 pm wrote:Im really annoyed that we are unsure of his intentions. Give him an ultimatum: "sign or fu'ck off"?

I'd go for the latter choice there, as I don't think he is of the required calibre that we are after matey