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The midfield situation... - ...your thoughts
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:25 amby JC_81
If we want to turn things around against Bolton something has to change. The points we've dropped this season have a lot to do with individual mistakes (Carra giving away free kick v Spurs after getting caught out of position which led to Bassong's goal, Poor defending of Bassong's header, Lucas conceding a silly free kick and then heading it into the net himself v Villa, Carra not attacking his 'zone' and allowing Curtis Davies to score and Gerrard doing the daftest thing he's done since stamp on Naismith in the derby to concede that pen).
However, I see the midfield as a problem. Lucas isn't taking any responsibility, he doesn't want the ball and his first instinct is to get rid of it as quickly as possible to the closest red shirt. Just watch him, it's not good enough. This is forcing Mascherano to try to do more with the ball, ie make the forward passes, which is not his strength. It's making Mascherano look an average player because it's not his role. The balance is not there. As a result, Gerrard isn't getting the ball and therefore neither is Torres.
We have no choice really but to drop Lucas as I see it. I feel almost sorry for him because he's becoming a bit of a scapegoat so far in a season where our big hitters (Gerrard, Torres, Mascherano, Carragher) have simply not played well. But Lucas has truly been dire. He's the weakest link in a dysfunctional midfield.
We have a few choices until Aquilani gets fit...
1. Drop Gerrard back with Mascherano, play Riera and Kuyt wide and have Benayoun playing the 'Gerrard role' behind Torres. I think if Benayoun gets a run in that position he could turn out to be a real key player for us and Gerrard would give us a bit of cut and thrust in midfield.
2. You keep Gerrard up top and try someone else in beside Mascherano. But who? Spearing? Plessis? Even Riera? For me Riera looks like he might be able to play centrally. He's good on the ball and seems capable of retaining possession in tight spaces. All in all not great options here.
3. We persevere with Lucas in the hope he improves.
For me it has to be option 1. Thoughts?
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:42 amby The_Rock
Drop Gerrard back into midfield....
Reina
Dickman Carra Skertel Insua
Mascherano
Babel Riera
Benayoun Gerrard
Torres
Think mascherano will be good enough to anchor the midfield on his own....and Benayoun and Gerrard taking turns to drop into midfield (and thus confusing the opposition).....
If benitez for some reason only known to him (you know ... like those reasons of monumental proportions like picking crouch as a left winger) wants to pick lucas...then just replace him with mascherano.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:44 amby bigmick
You're kind of echoing existing threads John, but your point about Lucas is an excellent one. When you say this "Lucas isn't taking any responsibility, he doesn't want the ball and his first instinct is to get rid of it as quickly as possible to the closest red shirt. Just watch him, it's not good enough you have summed up perfectly what the problem is. Unfortunately whenever you discuss him though you get accused of making him a scapegoat which isn't the case at all. FWIW I definately would bring Gerrard back, and TBPH I wouldn't really care if we left Lucas in and dropped Masherano.
The problem with Lucas is he's being asked to perform a role which he patently obviously isn't up to. He could make a much better fist of the Masherano role, and as the Argentine is playing rubbish there's not much to choose I don't think.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:15 amby DrPepe
think he has to stick with lucas for the upcoming game - mascherano and him can run around kicking people and occupy their CM, so that hopefully our quality attacking players riera, kuyt, gerrard torres can stay out of it and do the damage where it;s needed 
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:18 amby Ciggy
If I was Rafa I think we need to go 4-4-2 atleast until Aqualini is fit, put Derek upfront with Torres or Babel.
Gerrard and Masch in midfield atleast if Gerrards there he can feed passes to the forward line instead of sideways like Lucas and Carra do they are like crabs always passing sideways or passing it back.
Lucas is just an average midfielder and doesnt deserve a place in our starting 11, its not his fault though, he is being asked to fill the boots of our best player from last season.
Midfielders control the game and Xabi dictated the way we play, it seems no one wants that responsibility, Lucas, Gerrard, or Masch.
But expect to loose a few more games if this is not sorted asap.
Even Jay Spearing could do what Lucas does, I am not making the lad a scapegoat but he just isnt good enough he would probably flourish abroad and he probably has something in his locker, but since he''s been here he's kept what talent he has in that locker.
Time is not on ourside to wait for him to flourish our games come thick and fast, its back to the drawing board im afraid, and it will be a shame we have to break up the Gerrard/Torres partnership but somethings got to give.
Maybe try Lucas or yossi behind Torres?
games are won and lost in midfeild and ours has gone from one of the strongest in Europe to one of the weakest overnight, and we dont have the time to wait for Aqualini we could be out the title race by the time the fella is fit.
In hindsight Rafa has made a mistake signing a player that will miss three months of the season and who is unproven in the prem.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:22 amby Sabre
Midfeilders control the game and Xabi dictated the way we play, it seems no one wants that responsibility, Lucas, Gerrard, or Masch.
Yes, Alonso was important, but we've been weeks without Alonso due to injuries, and those replacing him did a better job than they have done so far.
I'm not focusing only in Lucas, I'm talking the about the whole team, as often a bad game of a midfielder has it's explanation elsewhere.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:26 amby Ciggy
Sabre wrote:Yes, Alonso was important, but we've been weeks without Alonso due to injuries, and those replacing him did a better job than they have done so far.
True Sabre, but we knew he was coming back from injury and when we where in bad form we knew once he was back we would go on a winning run which we did.
We dont have that excuse now cause he's gone 
People will laugh at this but Id even have Kevin Nolan on loan for the time being, we cannot go through the season with a midfield of Gerrard, lucas and masch for the rest of the season and god help us if Gerrard gets injured 
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:40 amby JC_81
bigmick wrote:You're kind of echoing existing threads John
Apologies...
Haven't really been online the past 3-4 weeks due to no internet and couldn't be @rsed wading through a lot of the dross in other threads. I'm sure it can be merged with another thread if it's a problem.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:47 amby stmichael
john craig wrote:1. Drop Gerrard back with Mascherano, play Riera and Kuyt wide and have Benayoun playing the 'Gerrard role' behind Torres. I think if Benayoun gets a run in that position he could turn out to be a real key player for us and Gerrard would give us a bit of cut and thrust in midfield.
Even I'm coming round to this way of thinking at the moment, even though I don't like Gerrard in central midfield anymore. It's not his best position and he can't play the role like he did 5 years ago.
It's a question of the lesser of two evils though. Do we lose more by pulling Gerrard out of his best position or by leaving the midfield without anyone who can pull the strings? In my opinion, it's absolutely the latter. There's no point Gerrard being up front if there's no-one setting up the chances or creating the space for him from midfield.
I just don't see Rafa doing it though.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:55 amby JC_81
stmichael wrote:john craig wrote:1. Drop Gerrard back with Mascherano, play Riera and Kuyt wide and have Benayoun playing the 'Gerrard role' behind Torres. I think if Benayoun gets a run in that position he could turn out to be a real key player for us and Gerrard would give us a bit of cut and thrust in midfield.
Even I'm coming round to this way of thinking at the moment, even though I don't like Gerrard in central midfield anymore. It's not his best position and he can't play the role like he did 5 years ago.
It's a question of the lesser of two evils though. Do we lose more by pulling Gerrard out of his best position or by leaving the midfield without anyone who can pull the strings? In my opinion, it's absolutely the latter. There's no point Gerrard being up front if there's no-one setting up the chances or creating the space for him from midfield.
I just don't see Rafa doing it though.
I think the way Gerrard is being asked to play at the moment is part of the problem. When this formation was initially hatched, Gerrard provided a bit of a link between midfield and attack. The more he's played this advanced role, the further up the pitch his starting position seems to get. He's not even playing behind Torres now, he's playing as an out-and-out striker. When we don't have the ball he's not dropping off into midfield these days, he's lingering around up front waiting for the ball... which inevitably doesn't come with a midfield of Lucas and Mascherano.
Maybe we expect too much of Gerrard these days, but having watched the Spurs and Villa games I think he could have done more to help the midfield.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:43 amby stmichael
john craig wrote:Maybe we expect too much of Gerrard these days, but having watched the Spurs and Villa games I think he could have done more to help the midfield.
I'd agree with that.
Nowadays he rarely tracks back or tries to win the ball back when he loses it. He's got a comfy position playing in a free role behind Torres and to me, doesn't look as if he can be ar$ed to go back into the trenches of central midfield. Besides, he's doing well enough in his current position and is probably the best player in the world in that position when he's at his best.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:40 pmby Owzat
I think we're also not getting enough bodies in the box, neither Lucas nor Mascherano is going to which is why I favour 4-1-3-2. With Alonso in the side we could play 4-2-3-1 quite comfortably as he is comfortable on the ball. Criticism of Lucas for trying to get rid of the ball makes me laugh as he'd get lambasted if he slowed play down or was caught in possession so either way he's going to get it in the neck. Dropping Gerrard back may reduce his effectiveness, do we really need two men sitting in midfield? Waste of Gerrard's talents, he's not really a great passer of the ball so we'd see 'Hollywood passes' squandering possession, him going in for even more tackles and I'd rather he was relieved of that responsibilty and the cost would be his goalscoring I have little doubt. We won't find out until perhaps too late whether Aquilani will be a hit and how best the team shapes with him in it.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:58 pmby JC_81
Owzat wrote:Criticism of Lucas for trying to get rid of the ball makes me laugh as he'd get lambasted if he slowed play down or was caught in possession so either way he's going to get it in the neck.
Defending Lucas makes me laugh.
Getting rid of the ball quickly... by passing it sideways or backways... DOES slow play down from an attacking point of view. He just doesn't look forward.
But you're right, he'd get lambasted whatever he does, but that's because whatever he does is rubbish. The lad is out of his depth and it's embarrassing. People can argue against that til they're blue in the face, but it's blatantly obvious.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:09 pmby stmichael
john craig wrote:Owzat wrote:Criticism of Lucas for trying to get rid of the ball makes me laugh as he'd get lambasted if he slowed play down or was caught in possession so either way he's going to get it in the neck.
Defending Lucas makes me laugh.
Getting rid of the ball quickly... by passing it sideways or backways... DOES slow play down from an attacking point of view. He just doesn't look forward.
But you're right, he'd get lambasted whatever he does, but that's because whatever he does is rubbish. The lad is out of his depth and it's embarrassing. People can argue against that til they're blue in the face, but it's blatantly obvious.
The problem is, we don't really have any other alternatives. Those championing the likes of Spearing make me laugh. Lucas is much better from what I have seen.
Pacheco on the other hand was definately the one that caught my eye the most when watching the reserves. His forward thinking, technical ability and hunger for the ball was really outstanding. He definitely has a football career ahead of him even if he doesn't make it at Liverpool. Would like to see him make the step up and play with the first team, very creative player.
Posted:
Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:39 pmby JC_81
stmichael wrote:The problem is, we don't really have any other alternatives. Those championing the likes of Spearing make me laugh. Lucas is much better from what I have seen.
That's a problem we have all over the pitch though, not just centre mid - there's no strength in depth.