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Champions league - Would it be enough?
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:08 amby JC_81
I suspect opinions will vary on this, but I pose the question that even if we managed to win the Champions League and came in 2nd or 3rd in the league, would you regard it as a good season?
At the beginning of the season, myself and many others regarded a league challenge as a good season and perhaps weren't overly bothered about winning the CL this season. In terms of the league, I think the title is United's but out of the other sides we were the ones who at least hung in there with a shout the longest. Chelsea were out of it well before us even though they've leapfrogged us now. It is funny though to hear the media say Chelsea are back in with a shout, despite the fact they were writing us off even when we were top. Complete bollox.
So anyway, it looks like 2nd or 3rd is realistic now and once again we are in a good position in the CL. I think the way our team is set up we will be really difficult for teams to beat in that competition and should have a fit Gerrard and Torres for the latter rounds if we close out the Madrid tie. I think we can do it.
To be honest I think many would have taken this position at the start of the season, but a good start inflated peoples' expectations and the Keane situation along with some of Rafa's media antics have had people sharpening the knives even more. If you think about it in pure footballing terms though, we are having a decent season imo. The Madrid game is now the biggest game of the season, forget Old Trafford. We lose at Old Trafford and yes it would hurt, but we'd still be just as fu.cked as we are anyway in the league. We lose at Anfield against Madrid and the season's over. Our focus has definitely changed now, or at least it should have.
So if Benitez pulls off the CL this season, would this be a good season? Or would that just be papering over the cracks in some peoples' eyes?
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:12 amby Effes
Defo.
If I was told Rafa would not win the league in the next 4 years, but we'd win the Champs League twice;
I'd take that.
The Champs League is a boss tournament, and winning it is defo a successful season.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:16 amby Dundalk
For any team to win the Champions League is a successful season, just because we have done well in it recently dosent mean that it is a VERY hard competion to win. We have been spoilt rotten in the CL of late and other teams would give anything to have our recent record.
It says a lot that we now EXPECT to get to at least the semis when under Houllier we were going out of the UEFA cup to Marseille
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:16 amby GYBS
One hundred per cent yes - CL is one of the biggest club trophies in the world . If we win it would be a massive success and a great season
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:23 amby bigmick
Sorry but no. It proves once again tha Rafa is as good as it gets in europe, but we knew that anyway. We started the season wanting a challenge, and fleetingly we got one, but the way we t0ssed it away with gay abandon convinced me more than ever that we need a new manager. You don't sell your striker cover in january without bringing in a replacement if you're the kind of manager we need.
Funnily enough, if you are all for the manager, even if we LOST against Madrid it shouldn't really alter your view. It won't alter my view that Rafa is very good over the cagey two legged affairs, one defeat won't change that. I actually don't think we'll win it, as once we get into the competition proper we are going to play against better teams than Madrid. If we start knocking out English clubs I'll start thinking it's possible, but until then we are only just reaching the point where we really ought to get to as a minimum standard (last 8) so I aren't getting too excited just yet.
All that said, seeing as how we're going to surrender our league title record to the Mancs, it would be lovely to extend the Champions League lead. We've definately got a chance with Rafa at the helm so fingers crossed, but for me the way the league campagin panned out, and the way the manager was culpable in us pulling up while in front means that he's used up all his excuses in my eyes.
He will though sign a new contract, and all his supporters will get a chance to be proven right. My guess is we'll have at least another two years of him. That'll make it seven seasons then, hopefully sometime between now and then we can add to the two trophies he's won. Even better, hopefully everyones undying faith in Rafa is repaid and he becomes the legend many claim he already is. We'll see.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:39 pmby Redman in wales
For me, its enough to give him another season.
Bar an England-cricket-style capitualation, we nailed on for 2nd or 3rd. A champions league win coupled with a top 3 finish for me would give Rafa one more season to try and crack the league.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:41 pmby Ace Ventura
Without question it would be a good season, no, actually i would go as far as saying a superb season.
The problem is some people are undervaluing the champions league either because like Dundalk says we have been spoilt in the last 4 seasons or because it suits there arguement against Rafa.
I have said in another thread i am not at all convinced by Rafa anymore, the tell tale signs have been there for about 3 seasons now where he has made so many crazy decisions in league games regarding selections, substitutions and tactics etc.
But lets not get silly, the champions league is massive and yes mick we should be aiming at a minimum of last 8 - because thats where Rafa has taken us, there are still some super sides in there, its just that the english teams have grew so much over the last 5 years.
But to win a competition that has the other top 3 from our league as well as sides like Barce, Real Madrid, Milan, Inter, Juve, Bayern Munich etc etc etc, would be a superb achievement.
If we had been knocked out in the second round a few times in the last few seasons like Real Madrid have i am sure we would appreciate how difficult it actually is.
Putting it another way, if say someone like Villa make the top 4 and qualify for next seasons, how do you think they would fare ?
The problem alot of fans (myself included) have is....can we put up with not being champions in the foreseeable future ?
Because like mick has said, under Rafa its extremley unlikely that we will ever be our own league champions.
That is why if we sorted the ownership issue out i would be happy to let someone else have a stab at manahing our club, champions league win or not.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:38 pmby JC_81
I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe. He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe. He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.
Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano. Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League? No way.
Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through? Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:55 pmby Ace Ventura
john craig wrote:I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe. He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe. He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.
Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano. Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League? No way.
Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through? Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.
Its a very good point John, i am certain that before Rafa and all the success in the champions league the likes of Torres and Mascherano probably wouldnt of signed, definately not Torres who had turned down Chelsea.
What we have to look at from my point of view is, if we keep Rafa can we get back to the top of our own tree (the league) ?
The answer for me is a definate no, so (if we get the ownership sorted) then regardless of winning the champions league i would advocate a new start.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:03 pmby JC_81
Ace Ventura wrote:john craig wrote:I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe. He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe. He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.
Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano. Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League? No way.
Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through? Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.
Its a very good point John, i am certain that before Rafa and all the success in the champions league the likes of Torres and Mascherano probably wouldnt of signed, definately not Torres who had turned down Chelsea.
What we have to look at from my point of view is, if we keep Rafa can we get back to the top of our own tree (the league) ?
The answer for me is a definate no, so (if we get the ownership sorted) then regardless of winning the champions league i would advocate a new start.
Fair points.
I would argue that no manager could come in and win the league for us without significant investment in the playing staff. And I'm not talking about a big 'net spend' over 5 years. I'm talking about 2, if not 3 20 million pound players in key positions - ie striker and right mid definitely and then either a full back or left mid - to come in in one transfer window.
Look at our team man for man against United's and how the feck can any of us really expect to win the league.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:20 pmby account deleted by request
I think what our success in the CL does is highlight why we have problems in the league. We win in the CL because we are solid at the back make very few mistakes and are tactically set up to stop the other side playing. We play on the break, relying on hard work, and its the team that makes the least mistakes that usually wins.
In the prem its ALL about winning games, rather than not losing games. You need to have players that will take a risk that may get you the all important goal. Teams don't need to come at you because a lot of them are more than delighted to get a point. Its teams that can create goals, that can force the other team to make errors that win games. We are the team forced to go forward while other teams hit us on the break.
How many teams have had as many penalty shootouts as Liverpool? How many teams have won as many away legs then lost the second leg at home as we have, happy to go through on away goals.
We need more creativity, not for Europe as much as for the league. Its the league were teams are happy to play for a point, or hope to snatch a lucky goal once we begin to panic that we need more creativity.
To get back on track, I think if we win the CL its a great achievement and I don't see how we could let him walk after achieving it. I still don't think he will bring us the league, but I think he would deserve the chance to try.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:21 pmby Toffeehater
Winning ti would deffo buy rafa another season or two to sustain his league challenge and yes it would be a successful season if we win it . I don't think we will win it but we will go at least to the semi's
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:32 pmby account deleted by request
john craig wrote:Ace Ventura wrote:john craig wrote:I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe. He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe. He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.
Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano. Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League? No way.
Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through? Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.
Its a very good point John, i am certain that before Rafa and all the success in the champions league the likes of Torres and Mascherano probably wouldnt of signed, definately not Torres who had turned down Chelsea.
What we have to look at from my point of view is, if we keep Rafa can we get back to the top of our own tree (the league) ?
The answer for me is a definate no, so (if we get the ownership sorted) then regardless of winning the champions league i would advocate a new start.
Fair points.
I would argue that no manager could come in and win the league for us without significant investment in the playing staff. And I'm not talking about a big 'net spend' over 5 years. I'm talking about 2, if not 3 20 million pound players in key positions - ie striker and right mid definitely and then either a full back or left mid - to come in in one transfer window.
Look at our team man for man against United's and how the feck can any of us really expect to win the league.
The idea of a TEAM IS THAT THE SUM IS GREATER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS. If you use a revolving door transfer policy you will never achieve that (maybe a brilliant man manager could)
The Forest team that won the league and 2 European cups wasn't a great side had few great players yet swept all before it for a couple of years. How many of their players would have got in the Liverpool team 1 possibly 2 ?
The Blackburn team that won the league under Kenny, how many would have got in the Mancs team ?
A managers job is MORE than buying more expensive players than your rivals, its blending them in such a way that the sum of the TEAM is greater than the parts.
Great managers achieve this, other managers ask for more money.
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:38 pmby Reg
100% yes. Win the Cl for a 6th time - yes please.
Not winning the league is an ongoing frustration but CL is more than fair compesnation, come'on guys lets be real!
Posted:
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:48 pmby Flight
Dundalk wrote:For any team to win the Champions League is a successful season, just because we have done well in it recently dosent mean that it is a VERY hard competion to win. We have been spoilt rotten in the CL of late and other teams would give anything to have our recent record.
It says a lot that we now EXPECT to get to at least the semis when under Houllier we were going out of the UEFA cup to Marseille
Well said. We are now the number one rated side in Europe by EUFA, for the first time since 1985.