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Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:57 pmby Ace Ventura
Am totally with redtrader74 the sending off was a ridiculous decision. And in a match that was going to go towards settling this years champions the referee of the game should have common sense.
I cant see whats wrong with Mascherano asking the referee whats going on if his team mate is getting fouled every time he gets the ball. Uniteds defenders went right through Torres every time he got the ball into feet, stopping us getting out of our own half most of the time. They were definately under instructions from Ferguson to do that and it worked a treat.
Makes his comments about Ronaldo being kicked out of games ring a little hollow though doesnt it.
To be fair like most have said before the sending off we were being outplayed anyway. So lets not allow this to mask the result, we would of lost anyway.
Like connovar said looking at the team sheet at the start i was really pleased but given hindsight it would of been better to have Gerrard deeper, he was pushed on and we didnt have the ball and when he got it due to the tactics there was no support and we lost the ball far too easily.
It was disheartening to watch and shows the difference in class may be bigger than we realise.
Again regading the sending off it was a couple of minutes until half time, if the referee thought Mascherano needed to calm down couldnt he have talked to him like Reilly with Cole the other night ?
All he had to say was calm down, remember your on a yellow card, you have 15 minutes coming up to calm yourself down.
Instead he sent him off...in a total over reaction and ruined the game.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:59 pmby Bammo
If the Masch incident is the FA laying down their new standards and they continue to send players off then at least they're consistent to all teams. As I've said, Masch broke the laws of the game but so do many others. Either they all get punished or none of them do.
If (as I suspect) this is a one-off demonstration of their power then it's ridiculous. I'd bet that within 2 weeks players are back to hounding referees with no punishment.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:10 pmby heimdall
redtrader74 wrote:Bammo wrote:redtrader74 wrote:Bad Bob wrote:redtrader74 wrote:MASCHERANO DID NOTHING WRONG, NOTHING, IT IS NOT A FOOTBALLING CRIME TO SPEAK TO THE REF, HE DID NOT SWEAR OR TOUCH THE REF
Nothing, mate? So, it's a perfectly acceptable move for a player on a yellow to run 20 yards over to a ref with a rep like 'Book-em Bennett' to argue the toss after said ref has just written up a teammate for dissent on the basis of a few words and a hand gesture? It's okay that he'll miss the derby now or that not leaving the field means he might miss the Arsenal and Blackburn matches as well? The sending off was definitely harsh, mate, but to suggest that he did nothing wrong is going too far, IMO.
I have know idea whether Macherano knew of Bennets reputation. The fact is there is nothing wrong, nothing in the rule books, that precludes a player from asking the referee why a team mate has been booked, whether they walk over from 2 yds or 20. The referee is in charge, so if a player requires information on the game, he is well within his rights to ask any question, as long as he is polite (mascherano was) and not aggressive (again he wasn't).
Am i correct now that some supporters want our team to bend over each time we are given a bad decision? do we want our players to continue in the generally meek way we go about disputing referee calls, while our competitors continue to assert themselves and gain the advantage?
He did nothing wrong, simple. (well not until he was sent off, and even that i can understand).
Nothing wrong? Have you seen the footage?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YQSmkB5XWgAccording to the laws of the game a player may be cautioned if he:
1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour
2. shows dissent by word or action
among other things. It's quite understandable for Bennett to feel that a player repeatedly telling him to fu
ck off and question his decisions constitutes dissent or unsporting behaviour.
His sending off may be harsh but there are people on here who need to learn the laws of the game. Fair enough, complain about the inconsistency (Gerrard/Ronaldo swearing, Ronaldo diving but no bookings) but don't act like Masch did nothing wrong.
He did not swear at the referee when he was sent off. He did nothing that was out of the ordinary, and to this day, i have not seen a player sent off or yellowed for saying ' Why? what was that for ref? why?' What he did does not constitute dissent, and did not warrant a yellow card, had it, then there would be 20 yellows in each game.
Therefore he did nothing wrong, especially in terms of the way the LAWS of the game are normally dispensed.
Watch it yourself, the card was being written before he'd said two words, and a montage of him saying Fck off during a game, cut in with pictures of the ref, does not mean it was directed at the ref, there were 11 mancs to say that to.
what a blinkered and stupid view you have. If Mascha's protest was so innocent then why did Alonso try and pull him away from the ref, answer me that one genius.
Mascha is the disgrace, he let down his team mates and all us supporters by not controlling his emotions.
I just hope that all ref's start being consistent about not tolerating dissent becuase it's been going on too long, they should clamp down on the swearing as well although Sky seem to love zooming in on players at the exact moment they are swearing!
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:26 pmby Bad Bob
redtrader74 wrote:I have know idea whether Macherano knew of Bennets reputation. The fact is there is nothing wrong, nothing in the rule books, that precludes a player from asking the referee why a team mate has been booked, whether they walk over from 2 yds or 20. The referee is in charge, so if a player requires information on the game, he is well within his rights to ask any question, as long as he is polite (mascherano was) and not aggressive (again he wasn't).
Am i correct now that some supporters want our team to bend over each time we are given a bad decision? do we want our players to continue in the generally meek way we go about disputing referee calls, while our competitors continue to assert themselves and gain the advantage?
He did nothing wrong, simple. (well not until he was sent off, and even that i can understand).
Just a couple of points, mate.
On Bennett, Mascherano may not have had a lot of personal experience but I would hope that the word would have been out before the match, not only because Bennett's been known to be a disciplinarian but also because of all the hoopla surrounding the Cole booking midweek and the fact that Bennett was involved in that match as well.
Even if he didn't know, surely watching Bennett book Torres for dissent for hardly saying a word would have been signal enough for him to keep schtum? Running up to question a card-happy ref whilst on a yellow is suicide, regardless of how calmly you do it or how innocuous it seems to simply ask a question.
As for this notion of simply bending over in the face of bad decisions, I don't want to see that but, at the same time, we need to be very careful. Refs will never unbook a player so the chat must be designed to make him think twice about flashing a card toward your team in the future. But, it fundamentally depends who is talking, how they approach it etc. If Alonso or Stevie had decided to have a quiet word after the cards were put away but before the free kick was taken, I doubt we'd have seen a card. As it was, it was a player that had been chirping in the official's ear all half who took it upon himself to intervene. I appreciate what he was trying to do but he was absolutely the wrong person to be having a word given how things had gone up until that point.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:30 pmby Judge
Bammo wrote:redtrader74 wrote:Bad Bob wrote:redtrader74 wrote:MASCHERANO DID NOTHING WRONG, NOTHING, IT IS NOT A FOOTBALLING CRIME TO SPEAK TO THE REF, HE DID NOT SWEAR OR TOUCH THE REF
Nothing, mate? So, it's a perfectly acceptable move for a player on a yellow to run 20 yards over to a ref with a rep like 'Book-em Bennett' to argue the toss after said ref has just written up a teammate for dissent on the basis of a few words and a hand gesture? It's okay that he'll miss the derby now or that not leaving the field means he might miss the Arsenal and Blackburn matches as well? The sending off was definitely harsh, mate, but to suggest that he did nothing wrong is going too far, IMO.
I have know idea whether Macherano knew of Bennets reputation. The fact is there is nothing wrong, nothing in the rule books, that precludes a player from asking the referee why a team mate has been booked, whether they walk over from 2 yds or 20. The referee is in charge, so if a player requires information on the game, he is well within his rights to ask any question, as long as he is polite (mascherano was) and not aggressive (again he wasn't).
Am i correct now that some supporters want our team to bend over each time we are given a bad decision? do we want our players to continue in the generally meek way we go about disputing referee calls, while our competitors continue to assert themselves and gain the advantage?
He did nothing wrong, simple. (well not until he was sent off, and even that i can understand).
Nothing wrong? Have you seen the footage?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YQSmkB5XWg
According to the laws of the game a player may be cautioned if he:
1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour
2. shows dissent by word or action
among other things. It's quite understandable for Bennett to feel that a player repeatedly telling him to fuck off and question his decisions constitutes dissent or unsporting behaviour.
His sending off may be harsh but there are people on here who need to learn the laws of the game. Fair enough, complain about the inconsistency (Gerrard/Ronaldo swearing, Ronaldo diving but no bookings) but don't act like Masch did nothing wrong.
if thats the case, then all players from the manure versus arsenal matches shouldve been sent off. Manure players crowding the ref was never dealt with, and so on.....
chavski are also perennial whingers at the ref. all gone unpunished.
need i say more
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:50 pmby Bammo
I agree Judge and that's one of my points. In the modern game, certain laws aren't upheld. These include dissent, diving, defenders sheilding the ball out, shirt pulling, climbing for headers. The trouble is, when referees do decide to uphold the laws, we feel hard done by because others get away with it.
It's about time that the FA/Premier League/UEFA/FIFA or whoever take a firm stance.
If that means a few weeks of players getting sent off, numerous penalties for shirt pulling (try and find a corner or free kick where it doesn't happen) then so be it. What pisses me off is when the FA uphold a law for a few games then forget it again. It shouldn't be acceptable to complain, foul or cheat in any form. It doesn't go unpunished in rugby and it's the one area we can learn from them.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:08 pmby Ace Ventura
I can see what people are saying, i know Mascherano probably should of known better and not give the ref the option.
But even looking at it from a neutrals perspective Bennett didnt need to send him off. It wasnt clearly a second yellow, it was one were other/most referees wouldnt of sent him off. So when its Liverpool-United, nearing the end of the season and tensions are high shouldnt the man in the middle have the common sense to know that players might get a bit worked up if they feel decisions arent going there way ?
I seriously cant believe the stick on here that Mascherano is getting off his own fans, the decision from the ref didnt need to be made, the fact that even later in the game others were speaking to him far far worse and going unpunished shows he lost the plot earlier in the game.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:12 pmby Reg
Benitez wants talks with referee chief Tuesday, 25 March 2008 14:33
Rafael Benitez wants showdown talks with referees' boss Keith Hackett in the wake of Javier Mascherano's controversial red card at Old Trafford.
The Liverpool boss feels his side have been much-maligned after the incident on Sunday and may well become victims of an FA clean-up campaign - even though Mascherano's dismissal is his club's first of the season.
Benitez, aware that Mascherano has been condemned for his dissent aimed at referee Steve Bennett in the 3-0 defeat by Manchester United, still believes Liverpool need clarification from the man who controls the panel of top-flight referees.
Benitez - although accepting Mascherano made a big mistake to argue with the official - fears an example may be made of the Argentinian midfielder.
The Football Association are still reviewing the video of the incident and Bennett's report, which made a point of mentioning the time it took an angry Mascherano to leave the pitch.
A decision on future action is expected shortly, and FA sources say it is likely that Mascherano will be charged with failing to leave the field of play quickly enough.
The FA could instantly increase the player's ban by two extra games out, but then Liverpool would almost certainly demand a personal hearing.
Benitez told liverpoolfc.tv: 'I would like to speak to Keith Hackett, because it is important that we find a solution.
'At Liverpool, we respect the game; we respect the rules and we respect the referee - and it is important to remember that Mascherano was the first Liverpool player to be sent off in the league this season.'
Liverpool, who have one of the best disciplinary records in the Barclays Premier League, are still fuming over the treatment meted out to striker Fernando Torres during the match - and believe both the striker and Mascherano were asking for protection.
Mascherano, currently in Egypt with the Argentina squad, fears further action - following the protracted, angry scenes when he was virtually dragged from the pitch by coaching staff and colleagues.
If Mascherano is banned from subsequent games against Arsenal and Blackburn, Liverpool could well demand a personal hearing - which would delay any future ban.
Mascherano would be banned from league games only - starting with Sunday's derby against Everton - but would be able to play in both Champions League quarter-final legs against Arsenal.
Benitez is now keen to enter into a dialogue with Hackett in a bid to find 'a solution' to the problems which occurred at Old Trafford.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:13 pmby ConnO'var
Ace Ventura wrote:I can see what people are saying, i know Mascherano probably should of known better and not give the ref the option.
But even looking at it from a neutrals perspective Bennett didnt need to send him off. It wasnt clearly a second yellow, it was one were other/most referees wouldnt of sent him off. So when its Liverpool-United, nearing the end of the season and tensions are high shouldnt the man in the middle have the common sense to know that players might get a bit worked up if they feel decisions arent going there way ?
I seriously cant believe the stick on here that Mascherano is getting off his own fans, the decision from the ref didnt need to be made, the fact that even later in the game others were speaking to him far far worse and going unpunished shows he lost the plot earlier in the game.
No doubt, Ace.... The referee was pr!ck and appeared to be a little biased... to put it mildly
But, Masch should still know better..... He's an experienced international after all..... Bad day for the red mist to descend on him.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:16 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
Ace Ventura wrote:I can see what people are saying, i know Mascherano probably should of known better and not give the ref the option.
But even looking at it from a neutrals perspective Bennett didnt need to send him off. It wasnt clearly a second yellow, it was one were other/most referees wouldnt of sent him off. So when its Liverpool-United, nearing the end of the season and tensions are high shouldnt the man in the middle have the common sense to know that players might get a bit worked up if they feel decisions arent going there way ?
I seriously cant believe the stick on here that Mascherano is getting off his own fans, the decision from the ref didnt need to be made, the fact that even later in the game others were speaking to him far far worse and going unpunished shows he lost the plot earlier in the game.
Bennett is known throughout the game as a card happy ref, Mascheranho has been playing in this league for two years he must know this. He shouldn't of given Bennett the option to send him off, that's why I'm giving Mascheranho stick. He knows how important this game is to fans and he totally lost his head.
Yes Bennett was far to quick with the card but it's still Mascheranho who must be blamed because he give the option to Bennett. If he stayed well clear then he wouldn't of got sent off.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:19 pmby Ace Ventura
Put it this way, if i was a neutral at the FA looking forward to the big game and then i seen the sending off i would think to myself the referee could of stopped that.
If we all know Bennett is card happy then why is he allowed games as big as that ?
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:21 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
he's allowed to ref games of this magnitude ace because the FA are 
clowns.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:36 pmby Thingy
Bennett hadnt referreed a game at old trafford for 3 years until Sunday, yet when he does its one of the biggest of the season. I doubt he would of sent say Scholes of for example if he was acting like Masch.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:22 pmby redtrader74
heimdall wrote:redtrader74 wrote:Bammo wrote:redtrader74 wrote:Bad Bob wrote:redtrader74 wrote:MASCHERANO DID NOTHING WRONG, NOTHING, IT IS NOT A FOOTBALLING CRIME TO SPEAK TO THE REF, HE DID NOT SWEAR OR TOUCH THE REF
Nothing, mate? So, it's a perfectly acceptable move for a player on a yellow to run 20 yards over to a ref with a rep like 'Book-em Bennett' to argue the toss after said ref has just written up a teammate for dissent on the basis of a few words and a hand gesture? It's okay that he'll miss the derby now or that not leaving the field means he might miss the Arsenal and Blackburn matches as well? The sending off was definitely harsh, mate, but to suggest that he did nothing wrong is going too far, IMO.
I have know idea whether Macherano knew of Bennets reputation. The fact is there is nothing wrong, nothing in the rule books, that precludes a player from asking the referee why a team mate has been booked, whether they walk over from 2 yds or 20. The referee is in charge, so if a player requires information on the game, he is well within his rights to ask any question, as long as he is polite (mascherano was) and not aggressive (again he wasn't).
Am i correct now that some supporters want our team to bend over each time we are given a bad decision? do we want our players to continue in the generally meek way we go about disputing referee calls, while our competitors continue to assert themselves and gain the advantage?
He did nothing wrong, simple. (well not until he was sent off, and even that i can understand).
Nothing wrong? Have you seen the footage?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YQSmkB5XWgAccording to the laws of the game a player may be cautioned if he:
1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour
2. shows dissent by word or action
among other things. It's quite understandable for Bennett to feel that a player repeatedly telling him to fu
ck off and question his decisions constitutes dissent or unsporting behaviour.
His sending off may be harsh but there are people on here who need to learn the laws of the game. Fair enough, complain about the inconsistency (Gerrard/Ronaldo swearing, Ronaldo diving but no bookings) but don't act like Masch did nothing wrong.
He did not swear at the referee when he was sent off. He did nothing that was out of the ordinary, and to this day, i have not seen a player sent off or yellowed for saying ' Why? what was that for ref? why?' What he did does not constitute dissent, and did not warrant a yellow card, had it, then there would be 20 yellows in each game.
Therefore he did nothing wrong, especially in terms of the way the LAWS of the game are normally dispensed.
Watch it yourself, the card was being written before he'd said two words, and a montage of him saying Fck off during a game, cut in with pictures of the ref, does not mean it was directed at the ref, there were 11 mancs to say that to.
what a blinkered and stupid view you have. If Mascha's protest was so innocent then why did Alonso try and pull him away from the ref, answer me that one genius.
Mascha is the disgrace, he let down his team mates and all us supporters by not controlling his emotions.
I just hope that all ref's start being consistent about not tolerating dissent becuase it's been going on too long, they should clamp down on the swearing as well although Sky seem to love zooming in on players at the exact moment they are swearing!
You have no clue, each and every one of your posts proves this.
Posted:
Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:27 pmby Sabre
For me the "suicidal" factor was that he had a yellow (BTW, very early taken).
As for the run of 20 m, it's a thing we've seen before and we'll keep seeing many times.
Istambul final, the ref concedes a penalty, and Carra runs 60 m to make a protection screen between the italians and the ref. He told the ref something, then "Off Off" waving his arms. Was the run necessary? No, no penalties are cancelled once are given. Did we like it? of course we did.
I trust the lad when he says he just said what's happening, because it's the literal translation of what's usually said in his language to the ref when you want to protest, but you don't want to be carded. You don't get a card for saying what's happening, not even in the card trigger happy Spanish league.
I'm not saying Mascha did no wrong because he had a yellow, I just don't share all this "so stupid" thing because I saw a very normal reaction.