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Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:23 pmby Bad Bob
Toffeehater wrote:Leonmc0708 wrote:Toffeehater wrote:redtrader74 wrote:No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.
How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).
As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.
Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.
I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.
You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?
If we only conceded 20 goals, then that would be not that bad as it means we are tight at the back and teams scored only 7 goals form open play and 13 from set pieces.
If we concede 100 goals then it means we are shi.te.
You need to quantify it.
Those 13 goals can be avoided , thats what i'm trying to say , if we can reduce them to lets say abt 5 goals only conceded from set pieces we would have won or gotten points from many more games , manu whr we conceded from a corner , just to name a game .
As Big Mick has beautifully argued, it's a case of a good system but poor execution. We've done brilliantly with zonal marking the past few seasons and--as with most things--have seen a dip in form this season. It doesn't mean the system's broken, though.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:27 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:40 pmby redtrader74
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
Well if we are to concede, i'd rather they were from set pieces, because it is an easier problem to identify and rectify. Every team concedes goals from set pieces, we are not unique. It is clear that we need to get back to defending the way we have done over the previous 2 seasons when zonal marking was executed very well.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:42 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
redtrader74 wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
Well if we are to concede, i'd rather they were from set pieces, because it is an easier problem to identify and rectify. Every team concedes goals from set pieces, we are not unique. It is clear that we need to get back to defending the way we have done over the previous 2 seasons when zonal marking was executed very well.
zonal marking obviously hasn't been exucuted well if we were conceeding from set pieces. that's the point i've been making.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:46 pmby redtrader74
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:redtrader74 wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
Well if we are to concede, i'd rather they were from set pieces, because it is an easier problem to identify and rectify. Every team concedes goals from set pieces, we are not unique. It is clear that we need to get back to defending the way we have done over the previous 2 seasons when zonal marking was executed very well.
zonal marking obviously hasn't been exucuted well if we were conceeding from set pieces. that's the point i've been making.
So you agree that the system itself is good and feasible.
you do understand that whatever happens we will always concede set-piece goals. Man marking does not mean an end to goals.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:47 pmby bigmick
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
well in fairness all teams concede goals somehow at some stage, be it from set pieces, shots from outside the area or defensive mistakes. Although all teams strive for excellence and perfection, you are always going to concede goals at some point in the season.
I'm not disputing for a second that we have defended set-pieces poorly on occasions this season, but I am disputing the notion either that it is the set-up that's at fault (it isn't, it really is the players this time) or alternatively that if we reverted back to a man for man defensive outlook we'd magically become watertight from corners and free-kicks. All teams throughout history have conceded some goals from set-pieces, and we are no different.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:51 pmby JoeTerp
I have a bigger problem with the neccessary free kicks that were given up for a large amount of those goals, when you watch the replays you wonder what we were thinking, and a lot of time it is Gerrard, ALonso, or Carra
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:53 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
redtrader74 wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:redtrader74 wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The point is that, we may have excuted zonal marking well in the past few years. Stats may prove we conceeded the least amount of goals from set pieces in the league last season. But the goals we do/did conceed mainly come from set peices.
Well if we are to concede, i'd rather they were from set pieces, because it is an easier problem to identify and rectify. Every team concedes goals from set pieces, we are not unique. It is clear that we need to get back to defending the way we have done over the previous 2 seasons when zonal marking was executed very well.
zonal marking obviously hasn't been exucuted well if we were conceeding from set pieces. that's the point i've been making.
So you agree that the system itself is good and feasible.
you do understand that whatever happens we will always concede set-piece goals. Man marking does not mean an end to goals.
I think the system has its advantages...and our defensive record speaks for itself since zonal marking has been employed and I know that man marking doesn't mean an end to conceeding goals at set pieces, but I think what makes zonal marking so easier to conceed goals is the defensive players are just jumping straight up whereas the attackers are having a run on the ball.
I'd prefer us to be man marking, but while we're keeping clean sheets and having as good a defensive record as anybody zonal marking must be doing something right.
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:44 amby bigmick
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:but I think what makes zonal marking so easier to conceed goals is the defensive players are just jumping straight up whereas the attackers are having a run on the ball.
A great urban myth I'm afraid John. Zonal marking doesn't mean you stand stock still and jump vertically to head it, it simply means that you defend an area of the box and don't get suckered into leaving areas unattended. Once the ball is delivered, attackers "get a run" on the flight of the ball because they attack it. There is nothing in the system which stops a defender doing exactly the same.
The only way in which a defender could be disadvantaged is if the corner kicker pinged the ball straight onto where one of the defenders was positioned, totally evading all other players and the attacker was able to attack that space and get a jump. In reality though, this is as near to impossible as you could imagine. To reach Hyppia for instance defending the edge of the six yard box, the ball has to firstly completely evade Carragher who would be defending the front corner. To do that, it would have to be high and floated. It then has to avoid Reina moving two yards and catching the floated cross. This in my view renders the whole scenario practically impossible.
What most teams use is a mixed system anyway, whereby some players fill the gaps and partially pick opposition attackers up precisely to avoid people getting runs on defenders. As Sabre alluded to in his excellent photographic post the other day, this is where Liverpool currently are and for me it's in the main brilliantly coached by the manager.
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:11 amby god_bless_john_houlding
Fizz it in to the penalty spot Mick, you have (say West Ham tonight) Ferdinand, Neill, Upson, Cole, all running onto the ball and Skrtel/Carra on their todd trying to deal with the four of them.
In an ideal world I'd like to see a mix of both zonal and man marking. Put our best headers of a ball man marking their best, then have another 5/6 players marking the zones and leave Babel and Torres up front. Teams wouldn't be as advertagerous coming forward at corners or free kicks if we had those two with their pace running at them. So we'd have 9 players defending compared to their 5/6 attacking (including 2 or 3 of them being man marked.)
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:41 amby Leonmc0708
We cant beat Rafa with rotation as he has played a settled 11, so lets go with zonal marking again. Who cares if we have won the last three, scoring 9 and concedin only two, the man needs beating with some stick.
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 pmby nobybob
Leonmc0708 wrote:We cant beat Rafa with rotation as he has played a settled 11, so lets go with zonal marking again. Who cares if we have won the last three, scoring 9 and concedin only two, the man needs beating with some stick.
Spot on , there are just to many people here who begrudge any kind of praise whatsoever. And to many others who when giving praise swiftly follow it up with a big (BUT). I sometimes feel that these fellas are not to disappointed when things are going badly as it gives them an excuse to have a go at rafa.
Long live rafa---- down with peewee and his rafa haters we all know who they are. 
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:06 pmby Reg
I´m happy clappy.
I dont understand folks who continually dig at Rafa, he´s bringing back stability, pride and purpose. I hope he stays for the next 15 years.
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:08 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
Leonmc0708 wrote:as he has played a settled 11
When?
Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:12 pmby Judge
londonboy77 wrote:This will be my first ever post and do you know what, I am not even a Liverpool fan.
As a kid growing up in the 80's the first thing I knew about football was Liverpool but as I grew older and managed to find out a little more about the game I formed my own allegiances. That said, I still find myself following with great interest the club who it all started with for me.
What amazes me is the level of knowledge and the ability to articulate the point of all the posters so I will try to make my point but you may need to bear with me! Nothing I say will be unique or, more likely, even interesting but sometimes the view of an outsider looking in can be enlightening...a little like when your mate tells you your wife is getting fat.
I think it is patently obvious that both the team and squad are not strong enough to win the Premiership however what is worrying is the level of underperformance. There is no way that a squad as good as it is should be struggling to secure fourth spot...a good season for Liverpool at the moment would be a point behind Chelsea...outside chance for the title and given it a good shot, creating a platform to move up into what I fear is fast becoming "The Big Three".
The original post asked how long and how much...
How much? As much as it takes...because you are starting from behind the other three, who will probably spend £150m between them in the summer, you may need more. While Rafa has spent a lot in the past few years, he hasn't spent more than Man U and Chelsea...I think he's actually spent less and certainly has recouped money making his nett spending lower than the others. When he took over the other three had either years of stability and building beneath them or a huge pot of money...or both. I fear in answer to how much, the answer is much, much more.
How Long? Only Champions League success has helped to paper over the cracks and at the risk of contradicting myself I think Liverpool have underperformed. It doesn't look like he has got the best out of his players at times and certainly the team is hugely over-rotated. Stability in the club needs to come from the top but I feel that Rafa has had enough time and it is time to start a new era in the long and illustrious history of Liverpool Football Club.
The new manager will still have to deal with not having the finances or years of building that the other three have had but a manager needs to be brought in who can get the team to over-achieve rather than under-achieve. Need to catch the coat tails of the other three rather than constantly being 20 points behind.
Good Luck, I fear you may need it.
is your wife fat though? 