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How long and how much - For those who blame time and money
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:19 amby god_bless_john_houlding
If we keep Benitez next season, it'll be his fifth year, it's still going to be nearly 20 behind Fergie and nearly 10 behind Wenger.
So what do we do, do we just keep hold of Benitez until those two retire or is there a time when people admit he's had long enough. Is five years long enough or does he need 25 years or maybe 50?
If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
So what do we do, do we keep handing him 50 million a season and hope that United and Chelsea go bust, or is there a certain amount when people will think he's had enough money to build a strong enough squad.
For me he's had enough time and money to do what he wanted. Last couple of months I've started to lean towards one more year for him because I think people may be right that this is one backwards step for five forward steps. I also think with the signings of Babel, Torres and Mascheranho he's finally got a squad good enough and next season's arrivals will aid in that, so one more year is appealing to me. But with his record of rotation and this bollox zonal marking, it makes me wish he did go in the summer.
I just want to know when people will think he's had enough time and enough money to compete.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:22 amby username
bollox zonal marking 
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:23 amby redtrader74
How about this, how long do you think a LFC manager should be given before he WINS the league, and how much money does he need?, bearing in mind you think we will win the league every year.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:27 amby god_bless_john_houlding
redtrader74 wrote:How about this, how long do you think a LFC manager should be given before he WINS the league, and how much money does he need?, bearing in mind you think we will win the league every year.
If a new manager came in at the start of next season, given our current squad, I think he should be AT LEAST CHALLENGING within three years, as for money he wouldn't need a great deal, so anything between 50 and 80 million should be easily enough to bring in 3/4 required world stars.
Now can you answer my questions
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:29 amby hello_red
!
The net....
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:41 amby account deleted by request
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:redtrader74 wrote:How about this, how long do you think a LFC manager should be given before he WINS the league, and how much money does he need?, bearing in mind you think we will win the league every year.
If a new manager came in at the start of next season, given our current squad, I think he should be AT LEAST CHALLENGING within three years, as for money he wouldn't need a great deal, so anything between 50 and 80 million should be easily enough to bring in 3/4 required world stars.
Now can you answer my questions
If a new manager came in I would expect him to be challenging for the league next season, just the same as if Rafa stays.
We had the team to challenge this season but we made a boll0x of it. Next season no matter who is in charge I would expect us to challenge.
The only difference in consideration I would give to a new manager, is I would give him extra transfer funds so he can bring in a couple of his own players.
The minimum requirement for any manager is progress....... something we need to start seeing again from Rafa.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:42 amby redtrader74
No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.
How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).
As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.
Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.
I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:46 amby Kharhaz
If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:50 amby account deleted by request
Kharhaz wrote:If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Wenger and Fergie have sold top quality players, SOMETHING Rafa hasn't done! So I don't understand your arguement. Rafa sells off the cr@p he bought, they sell off big stars that they have found, and developed, and somehow that shows Rafa is the better manager?
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:55 amby Kharhaz
s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Wenger and Fergie have sold top quality players, SOMETHING Rafa hasn't done! So I don't understand your arguement. Rafa sells off the cr@p he bought, they sell off big stars that they have found, and developed, and somehow that shows Rafa is the better manager?
The players at united and arsenal were given time to develop, ronaldo for all his step overs was a disaster in his first season. Morientes and pellegrino in there first season were also disasters. United had the financial pedigree to bring in players to compensate for ronaldo while he adapts, rafa didnt. He had to put them down as incompatible with the premiership and sold them straight away in order to raise funds for new players.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:06 amby account deleted by request
Kharhaz wrote:s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Wenger and Fergie have sold top quality players, SOMETHING Rafa hasn't done! So I don't understand your arguement. Rafa sells off the cr@p he bought, they sell off big stars that they have found, and developed, and somehow that shows Rafa is the better manager?
The players at united and arsenal were given time to develop, ronaldo for all his step overs was a disaster in his first season. Morientes and pellegrino in there first season were also disasters. United had the financial pedigree to bring in players to compensate for ronaldo while he adapts, rafa didnt. He had to put them down as incompatible with the premiership and sold them straight away in order to raise funds for new players.
Morientes was 29, Pelligrino was 34(?), how much time would you have given them ? 
Who did United bring in to "compensate" for Ronaldo ? - Ji Sung Park - £4million.
Its boll0x mate, Fergie and Wenger have sold top players and brought in good quality either through the reserves or bought them. Rafa has bought fairly well except for summer 2006,but don't blame his failings on Wenger and Fergie not selling players.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:13 amby LFC2007
The requirement to sell players before you buy is a constraint in the transfer market, of that there is no question, the reasons for that have been explained before.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:14 amby Kharhaz
s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Wenger and Fergie have sold top quality players, SOMETHING Rafa hasn't done! So I don't understand your arguement. Rafa sells off the cr@p he bought, they sell off big stars that they have found, and developed, and somehow that shows Rafa is the better manager?
The players at united and arsenal were given time to develop, ronaldo for all his step overs was a disaster in his first season. Morientes and pellegrino in there first season were also disasters. United had the financial pedigree to bring in players to compensate for ronaldo while he adapts, rafa didnt. He had to put them down as incompatible with the premiership and sold them straight away in order to raise funds for new players.
Morientes was 29, Pelligrino was 34(?), how much time would you have given them ?
Who did United bring in to "compensate" for Ronaldo ? - Ji Sung Park - £4million.
Its boll0x mate, Fergie and Wenger have sold top players and brought in good quality either through the reserves or bought them. Rafa has bought fairly well except for summer 2006,but don't blame his failings on Wenger and Fergie not selling players.
No dont get me wrong, im not blaming the other managers for rafas failings. What im saying is rafa has to get it right first time, wenger and ferguson dont, they have the backing to bring in other players while the others they have signed can adapt. Look at this season, we bought mascherano, finally got him on a long term contract. united got Hargreaves. Spent all his life in germany and despite playing for england isnt used to the game. Carrick has been able to compensate for him. This season with rafa he signed babel and torres. Torres has been a godsend for us because he is used to pressure and babel is a talent that is there for us all to see but only now, late in the season are we beginning to see it. And thats what I mean by rafa has to get it right first time. The other two dont. They can give the players time to adapt. If we were afforded that time would Mark Gonzalez still be here?
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:29 amby account deleted by request
Kharhaz wrote:s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:s@int wrote:Kharhaz wrote:If we keep Benitez and give him another 50 million in the summer it'll make his funds since arriving at Liverpool upto 200million+, which will still be less than Chelsea or United in the same time.
He has spent a lot but each time he has he has also sold players. Wenger and Fergie havent had to do that. So the question is, in my opinion, if rafa was on an equal footing with them two, who would win more trophies?
Wenger and Fergie have sold top quality players, SOMETHING Rafa hasn't done! So I don't understand your arguement. Rafa sells off the cr@p he bought, they sell off big stars that they have found, and developed, and somehow that shows Rafa is the better manager?
The players at united and arsenal were given time to develop, ronaldo for all his step overs was a disaster in his first season. Morientes and pellegrino in there first season were also disasters. United had the financial pedigree to bring in players to compensate for ronaldo while he adapts, rafa didnt. He had to put them down as incompatible with the premiership and sold them straight away in order to raise funds for new players.
Morientes was 29, Pelligrino was 34(?), how much time would you have given them ?
Who did United bring in to "compensate" for Ronaldo ? - Ji Sung Park - £4million.
Its boll0x mate, Fergie and Wenger have sold top players and brought in good quality either through the reserves or bought them. Rafa has bought fairly well except for summer 2006,but don't blame his failings on Wenger and Fergie not selling players.
No dont get me wrong, im not blaming the other managers for rafas failings. What im saying is rafa has to get it right first time, wenger and ferguson dont, they have the backing to bring in other players while the others they have signed can adapt. Look at this season, we bought mascherano, finally got him on a long term contract. united got Hargreaves. Spent all his life in germany and despite playing for england isnt used to the game. Carrick has been able to compensate for him. This season with rafa he signed babel and torres. Torres has been a godsend for us because he is used to pressure and babel is a talent that is there for us all to see but only now, late in the season are we beginning to see it. And thats what I mean by rafa has to get it right first time. The other two dont. They can give the players time to adapt. If we were afforded that time would Mark Gonzalez still be here?
The big difference for me is Wenger and Fergie have had the time to develop player so they have ready replacements for their big stars. I.E. Fabrigas - Vieira, Henry - Adebayour etc etc.
Maybe if Lucas develops we will see Liverpool start to do the same with Alonso or even Gerrard? Its much harder when your reserves arn't up to much. I.E. when Owen left we had Baros Mellor, Pongole, LeTallec, who should have been stepping up. None of them quite made the step up.
Posted:
Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:01 amby bigmick
Johns initial question is a fair one but really there isn't really a sensible answer. Of course it wil the case for the forseeable future that we'll be "outmonied" by Man Utd and Chelsea, as well as "out-experienced" by Wenger and Ferguson. This is why it is IMHO a bit silly to constantly refer to these two facts when defending the managers position. If we are going to launch a title challenge (and once again we should resist attempts by Rafa supporters to go for the "so who do you think will win us the Premiership?" angle, most of us would settle for a challenge for starters), we are going to have to do so from a position of relative managerial inexperience and from having less money than our rivals. This will of course apply whoever is the manager. No point saying to Rafa at the end of the season or indeed anybody else pitching for the job "you'll have as much money as Man Utd and Chelsea to spend", because clearly he won't.
Redtraders point about "How can you say 50-80 million could do it, the proice of transfers could increase by 50%, or what about Spurs etc etc" is fair enough if a little pedantic, so I think "how long will be long enough" is probably impossible to answer.
Should we have a season next time around which is absolutely identical to this one (I know it's absolutely impossible in every sense but just as an illustration) I would have thought most people who support Rafa would probably change their minds. I think though it's extremely unlikely that we will fair anywhere near as badly next time around. One of the reasons that I am fairly adamant that we should change the manager is that I believe the bunch of players we have at our disposal has chronically underachieved this season, and I have no doubts that with a little less selectorial silliness next season and a couple of signings, we will drastically improve.
Whether that improvement will be sufficient to build a challenge for the league though remains to be seen. My own feeling is that with Rafa at the helm it won't. He will I've no doubt reduce the number of changes to the team per game next season (particularly at the start of the season) but the feeling remains that once we get some momentum, he can't resist a little tinker or two here and there which will ultimately backfire. He is by nature a rotater, a meddler, a manager who likes to manoevre his players like pawns in a game and ultimately we won't win the title by doing that.
Has he already had long enough? Well to mind he has, yes. He has shown time and time again that he believes passionately in a multi rotational mantra. I am absolutely convinced it will never ever work over here. It hasn't worked for four seasons (and in three of the four seasons it has failed spectacularly in my opinion) so I don't need to see another season just to make sure. We will improve if he stays next season though I've no doubts about that. He is a rotater but he's not an idiot, and we'll all still be debating the same points next march.