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Posted:
Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:05 pmby god_bless_john_houlding
Rush Job wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Scottbot wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Scottbot wrote:Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off
If we keep this formation (hopefully we do) for next season...where does it leave this summer's forward signing. For arguements sake we bring in David Villa...would he and Torres be able to play together in this 4-2-3-1 formation?
Can't see Villa coming in this summer mate. He would cost another 20-25 mill. Not gonna happen.
I did say for arguements sake, but whoever we sign will that fit into this formation.
Any natural forward...would they fit in along with Torres in this formation.
No unless they play wide like Kuyt.
Who (as a centre forward) would be prepared to play wide?
Posted:
Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:34 amby Scottbot
Rush Job wrote:And Scotbot did you read the interveiw with Rafa on LFCTV last week when he said Babel may well end up playing as a striker for us in the future?
Yes mate, I think he has mentioned it a couple of times this season plus Babel has already had the odd run-out as a frontman so far. He may well end up playing a bit of time up-front but I just don't see Rafa playing him in a two pronged attack with Torres. Rafa is quite obsessive about having players who can play between the lines (certainly when it comes to 4-42) so for that reason I don't think these two will play together. Babel likes the ball over the top, likes to play high and i'm sure he'd be looking to run a lot of the lanes Torres likes to run. Am not saying they wouldn't work together, they might, but I don't think the manager will try it or persevere with it.
Posted:
Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:40 amby Bad Bob
Scottbot wrote:Rush Job wrote:And Scotbot did you read the interveiw with Rafa on LFCTV last week when he said Babel may well end up playing as a striker for us in the future?
Yes mate, I think he has mentioned it a couple of times this season plus Babel has already had the odd run-out as a frontman so far. He may well end up playing a bit of time up-front but I just don't see Rafa playing him in a two pronged attack with Torres. Rafa is quite obsessive about having players who can play between the lines (certainly when it comes to 4-42) so for that reason I don't think these two will play together. Babel likes the ball over the top, likes to play high and i'm sure he'd be looking to run a lot of the lanes Torres likes to run. Am not saying they wouldn't work together, they might, but I don't think the manager will try it or persevere with it.
Completely agree, mate. Rafa might play Babel up top when Torres isn't available but playing them together is unlikely. In addition to the good points you've made, I don't think Babel has the terrier-like work ethic that Rafa counts on from his strikers--particularly from his 2nd striker. He has persisted with Kuyt for just that reason and I just don't see him sacrificing that part of his game plan by pairing Babel with Torres.
Posted:
Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:40 amby LFC2007
Scottbot wrote:Rush Job wrote:And Scotbot did you read the interveiw with Rafa on LFCTV last week when he said Babel may well end up playing as a striker for us in the future?
Yes mate, I think he has mentioned it a couple of times this season plus Babel has already had the odd run-out as a frontman so far. He may well end up playing a bit of time up-front but I just don't see Rafa playing him in a two pronged attack with Torres. Rafa is quite obsessive about having players who can play between the lines (certainly when it comes to 4-42) so for that reason I don't think these two will play together. Babel likes the ball over the top, likes to play high and i'm sure he'd be looking to run a lot of the lanes Torres likes to run. Am not saying they wouldn't work together, they might, but I don't think the manager will try it or persevere with it.
Babel played as a second striker in the Euro U-21 tournament, he was very effective there, exploiting the space created by Rigters. I think it's quite conceivable that he could play there effectively in future, he wouldn't be my ideal type of player to play there, but I think he's capable. You may well see Babel assuming the more forward role, with Torres playing in and around him, but I think they could alternate and mix it up a bit.
Posted:
Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:48 pmby Scottbot
LFC2007 wrote:Babel played as a second striker in the Euro U-21 tournament, he was very effective there, exploiting the space created by Rigters. I think it's quite conceivable that he could play there effectively in future, he wouldn't be my ideal type of player to play there, but I think he's capable. You may well see Babel assuming the more forward role, with Torres playing in and around him, but I think they could alternate and mix it up a bit.
I've no doubts it could work but I think it is a partnership that would take some time to develop. I still think it's likely we'll see Babel play in a number of roles these next 2 years, left-mid, left-forward and as a centre-forward.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:18 pmby LFC2007
I'm beggining to like the system, basically because it suits our squad the most. You effectively take a forward out and replace him with a deep-lying midfielder. Since we're not particularly strong in the second-forward position at the moment, it makes sense to play with two deep lying midfielders, leaving Torres up on his own and giving Gerrard, and the two occupying the wings more freedom to attack, it facilitates a more attacking approach. Essentially, the loss of a forward is compensated by the freedom to attack. I think you can see Babel playing in a more suited role when he plays on the left in this formation - the defensive burden isn't as great on him, and he can come in and play more as a left-forward at times. When we're attacking, our full backs should be getting forward anyway, irrespective of the formation. That shouldn't really change, but I think the formation does permit our fullbacks - particularly Arbeloa and Finnan - a touch more freedom to get forward, knowing that there are two in the middle covering any counter-attacking move that may arise.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:19 pmby skatesy
I think that Torres and Gerrard have been working brilliantly together under this system.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:24 pmby Bad Bob
LFC2007 wrote:I'm beggining to like the system, basically because it suits our squad the most. You effectively take a forward out and replace him with a deep-lying midfielder. Since we're not particularly strong in the second-forward position at the moment, it makes sense to play with two deep lying midfielders, leaving Torres up on his own and giving Gerrard, and the two occupying the wings more freedom to attack, it facilitates a more attacking approach. Essentially, the loss of a forward is compensated by the freedom to attack. I think you can see Babel playing in a more suited role when he plays on the left in this formation - the defensive burden isn't as great on him, and he can come in and play more as a left-forward at times. When we're attacking, our full backs should be getting forward anyway, irrespective of the formation. That shouldn't really change, but I think the formation does permit our fullbacks - particularly Arbeloa and Finnan - a touch more freedom to get forward, knowing that there are two in the middle covering any counter-attacking move that may arise.
Yes, it is starting to click nicely isn't it? I was wary at first because, on paper, it looks like it sticks Gerrard up as almost a second striker--a role he's struggled with in the past. In reality, though, it really just gives him license to roam all over the shop--dropping deep into central midfield on some occasions, peeling off toward the flanks in others, playing one-twos on the edge of the box in other moments, etc. Teams don't know where to find him and thus can't stick a man on him to nullify him. Nor can they simply cut off the passing channel to him, like some learned to do when he played RM a couple of seasons back. As a result, he's getting on the ball in dangerous places (between the lines) and driving into the gaps nicely. From that range he can shoot with devastating effect (4th against West Ham), play give-and-go with Torres or shape to shoot and then drive past any CB that steps out to close him down.
I think if we keep going with this formation and, of course, barring injuries, we'll not only see Torres net 30+ in all comps, we'll also see Gerrard comfortably beat the 23 goals he scored two seasons back. 
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:47 pmby LFC2007
Bad Bob wrote:LFC2007 wrote:I'm beggining to like the system, basically because it suits our squad the most. You effectively take a forward out and replace him with a deep-lying midfielder. Since we're not particularly strong in the second-forward position at the moment, it makes sense to play with two deep lying midfielders, leaving Torres up on his own and giving Gerrard, and the two occupying the wings more freedom to attack, it facilitates a more attacking approach. Essentially, the loss of a forward is compensated by the freedom to attack. I think you can see Babel playing in a more suited role when he plays on the left in this formation - the defensive burden isn't as great on him, and he can come in and play more as a left-forward at times. When we're attacking, our full backs should be getting forward anyway, irrespective of the formation. That shouldn't really change, but I think the formation does permit our fullbacks - particularly Arbeloa and Finnan - a touch more freedom to get forward, knowing that there are two in the middle covering any counter-attacking move that may arise.
Yes, it is starting to click nicely isn't it? I was wary at first because, on paper, it looks like it sticks Gerrard up as almost a second striker--a role he's struggled with in the past. In reality, though, it really just gives him license to roam all over the shop--dropping deep into central midfield on some occasions, peeling off toward the flanks in others, playing one-twos on the edge of the box in other moments, etc. Teams don't know where to find him and thus can't stick a man on him to nullify him. Nor can they simply cut off the passing channel to him, like some learned to do when he played RM a couple of seasons back. As a result, he's getting on the ball in dangerous places (between the lines) and driving into the gaps nicely. From that range he can shoot with devastating effect (4th against West Ham), play give-and-go with Torres or shape to shoot and then drive past any CB that steps out to close him down.
I think if we keep going with this formation and, of course, barring injuries, we'll not only see Torres net 30+ in all comps, we'll also see Gerrard comfortably beat the 23 goals he scored two seasons back.
Yes, I think you summed it up perfectly how it releases Gerrard. He's been popping up everywhere and the opposition struggle to pick him up. I think this could be to our benefit against Arsenal and the Manc's when we play them. Whenever we play them, Gerrard often gets nulified too easily, it will be interesting to see which formation we opt for and how Gerrard fares.
Against Newcastle, although it was ultimately a convincing win, we found it difficult to break them down in the opening 40 minutes. I think this was mainly down to poor wing play, especially on the left. Benayoun just came inside far too often, and got outmuscled a few times. Riise was clumsy and largely innefectual in going forward. I felt a good left winger, let alone a top quality one would've helped greatly in our attempts to break them down. Everything went down the right, and when you're up against teams who come to defend, you need every option open to you. The thought of utilising this formation with a top quality conventional left-winger, a good quality left-back, and potentially even a quality right winger to boot, is extremely appealing.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:50 pmby Sabre
I've always loved this system.
I still think though that the things Scott mentions in a previous long post about the need of proper wings is necessary.
Today, we didn't need the wings that much, Newcastle, a team that doesn't lack quality but needs to get right a lot of things gave us some facilities. Gerrard played very well and comfortably in a position in which he should have had a closer watch by the defenders. And in his last goal , and a previous play, we could see that the few times Newcastle advanced their defence to attack we made them a lot of harm.
But there will be games in which the defensive job will be spot on and for those games we need wingers. I'm not implying the wingers today played badly, but that we didn't have to use them to win the game.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:58 pmby LFC2007
Sabre wrote:But there will be games in which the defensive job will be spot on and for those games we need wingers. I'm not implying the wingers today played badly, but that we didn't have to use them to win the game.
I think it could've been different had Pennant not made the breakthrough, it would've come eventually I've no doubt (you can't keep up the same intensity of pressing for 90 min's), but they were making it hard for us and doing a decent job defensively.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:22 pmby ruskiy playmaker
Gerrard looks so good with pacy players around him, he's on another level. I really like this formation, hope we keep it for next season.
Posted:
Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:00 pmby The Manhattan Project
4-2-3-1 is NOT flawed.
How can it be flawed when it had the legendary Dusty Bin as the star of the show?
Posted:
Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:05 amby god_bless_john_houlding
Does anybody feel that the reason we're playing this formation, is not for attacking reasons but rather so we can play three of our four top central midfielders. Trying to keep Alonso, Mascheranho, Lucas and Gerrard happy in a 4-4-2 isn't easy, whereas this way we can play three of them. It's upsetting Crouch, but he was being upset in the 4-4-2 as well.
Posted:
Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:11 amby Scottbot
I'm not sure Benitez is particularly worried about upsetting anyone mate. He didn't mind upsetting his new bosses so i don't reckon he'll be too bothered about the midfield! 