Liverpool FC Forum

bigmick wrote:Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Parlour, Gilberto or Edu is probably your missing central midfielder there mick.

Just so you know for future reference 

bigmick wrote:Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. There may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

peewee wrote:next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

Big Niall wrote:I think the Wenger argument is won (especially considering he won the double in his first FULL season at Arsenal).

puroresu wrote:Rafa aint had the money chelsea have had but as wenger has shown u can find quality players if u have a good scouting network.  If u gave wenger £100 mil in he summer he wouldnt go and buy the most expensive players as u dont need to.   If Rafa cannot find gems on the cheap thats his problem.  Oh and all this 'wenger was given time to rebuild his side so why not rafa' talk is laughable. People speak as if Wenger was given time without justification.  A double in your 2nd season, then losing the title by 1 point the following season isnt bad.  3 years later its another double and scoring in very single league game. An FA cup to follow and then a season going unbeaten.  He may not have won anything since 05 but is it any wonder he has been given time to build his side.  His trophy wins means he deserved time.  Not to mention everyone could see the side he was building was v young and given time would progress to what u see today.  No trophies but there fans and the club could see progress was being made and it was only a matter of time before the kids learnt how to do it week in week out.  Rafa has yet to prove he has what it takes to even mount a serious challenge for the title let alone win a title.  His choice of players in the transfer market is also questionable.

Leonmc0708 wrote:If, (and its still a fuc.king big if) Arsenal win the league this season, it will be four seasons it has taken to assemble a title winning side. This was assembled on the back of a title win in 2003-2004.

When United won the league last season it was a side that was four seasons in the making. This was on the back of their league win in 2002-2003.

When Chelsea won the league, it was a team that took 3 years to assemble (since Roman took over). This was on the back of many many millions, and despite the obviously inflated prices (cus Chelsea came knocking) it was stil la considerable amount of money.

THESE ARE NOT EXCUSES - THEY ARE PERSPECTIVE.

We had to sell the club, cus it was THE ONLY way of keeping on the coat tails of the teams who have won the league in the last decade.

Over the last four years, in terms of spending, we are probably fourth highest in this league, can we really expect to finish any higher than fourth ?

Disclaimer - I am not a pro rotationalist, pro Rafa, Rafa apologist or any of the other such listing that people who seem to struggle with their own arguments need to catagorise people with. I am pro Liverpool, but I am realist.

RedBlood wrote:

puroresu wrote:Rafa aint had the money chelsea have had but as wenger has shown u can find quality players if u have a good scouting network.  If u gave wenger £100 mil in he summer he wouldnt go and buy the most expensive players as u dont need to.   If Rafa cannot find gems on the cheap thats his problem.  Oh and all this 'wenger was given time to rebuild his side so why not rafa' talk is laughable. People speak as if Wenger was given time without justification.  A double in your 2nd season, then losing the title by 1 point the following season isnt bad.  3 years later its another double and scoring in very single league game. An FA cup to follow and then a season going unbeaten.  He may not have won anything since 05 but is it any wonder he has been given time to build his side.  His trophy wins means he deserved time.  Not to mention everyone could see the side he was building was v young and given time would progress to what u see today.  No trophies but there fans and the club could see progress was being made and it was only a matter of time before the kids learnt how to do it week in week out.  Rafa has yet to prove he has what it takes to even mount a serious challenge for the title let alone win a title.  His choice of players in the transfer market is also questionable.

incase you havnt noticed mate our reserve teaM MADE UP OF YOUNGSTERS RAFA HAS BROUHT INTO THE CLUB ARE TOP OF THE LEAGUE PLAYING AGAINST MUCH MORE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS

loool sorry about the caps, cant be bothered writting it again

rafa is bringing young players into the squad and from what ive seen some of them have big futures

bigmick wrote:Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.