Liverpool FC Forum

Agree on the DM. We desperatly need some cohesion between midfield and defence. Someone to act as the buffer and prevent players walking through the middle of the park as if out on a sunday stroll.

If my opinion, we've never replaced Hamann

Hmmm i think we've had this problem since Macha and Alonso left.
Macherano was a beast when he was here.

I would say that if we had a better defense we would have scored more goals. So many times this season a jittery defense encouraged the other team only for them to park the bus once they scored. If we had a better defense I think we will score more with the players we have since they will see more open games.

This Naby Keita could be our own N'Golo Kante. Looks good (from my viewings on youtube at least )

redshade » Wed May 17, 2017 7:56 pm wrote:Hmmm i think we've had this problem since Macha and Alonso left.
Macherano was a beast when he was here.

You're right. Forgot about Macha. Sadly I still remember Christian Poulsen...

I think managers like Klopp and BR dont play with specialist DM's. At least they dont emphasize on it. They dont play with out and out strikers either.

Spanish outlet Marca report weve had a €75m bid for Mbappe rejected by Monaco.

Sounds like a publicity stunt and he will go beyond 100m in my opinion though its nice to dream, he's outstanding.

parchpea » Thu May 18, 2017 3:35 pm wrote:Spanish outlet Marca report weve had a €75m bid for Mbappe rejected by Monaco.

Sounds like a publicity stunt and he will go beyond 100m in my opinion though its nice to dream, he's outstanding.

Cracking young player. 75m euros is about £64-65m, No way Monaco will let him go for now. Story sounds nonsense anyway, Marca are usually full of *****

I'd be astonished if we spent £65m on one player, spending big dough is not really our modus operandi.
Good to have tenuous links to quality players though, livens up the summer 

kazza » Thu May 18, 2017 12:44 am wrote:I would say that if we had a better defense we would have scored more goals. So many times this season a jittery defense encouraged the other team only for them to park the bus once they scored. If we had a better defense I think we will score more with the players we have since they will see more open games.

I'd argue the opposite. Look at the goals conceded when Mane (and to a lesser extent Coutinho) is out of the side. It's not a coincidence. When we have 70%+ possession and aren't able to create and take good chances, we commit more bodies forward and quite often end up conceding as a result.

I keep saying that this notion of 'improve defense, win more' is a flawed one because defending better imo would mean sacrificing a bit going forward. Our attacking play -and everyone will agree on this- is the only reason we are where we are in the league. I'd argue that if we were 10% better off defensively and 10% worse off going forward we wouldnt be in the top4 now. See Utd as a good example of a side that didnt take enough risks throughout the season.

A better way to look at it would be looking at the games where we've conceded goals and dropped points and seeing where small improvements can be made. The only games were we conceded 1 or no goals and haven't won have been against Spurs, Utd (x2), Southampton(x2), Chelsea, and City.

Off the bat, set pieces are an issue. If we had a Van Dijk instead of a Lovren, we'd concede less from set pieces and crosses. Outside that, you'd have to look at it on a per game basis to judge. For simplicity, I've looked at the games where we conceded 2 or more goals in the league.

In 11 games were we conceded 2 or more, we won 2, drew 3, and lost 6. Disregard the 2 we won.

Burnley (away) 2-0
- No Mane
- Klavan at CB, no Matip
- 80%+ possession, 26 shots (burnley 3), 5 on target (burnley 2)

Bournemouth (away) 4-3
- Mane subbed off at 69mins with us winning 1-3
- Lucas at CB, no Matip
- No Lallana, no Coutinho
-They scored 3 in last 15mins
- 60%+ possession, 2 clearcut chances missed -0 to Bournemouth

West Ham (home) 2-2
- No Coutinho
- 67%+ possession, 19 shots (West Ham 8)

Sunderland (away) 2-2
- No Coutinho
- Klavan at CB, no Matip
- conceded from 2 penalties (equalizer in 84th min) after taking forward off and bringing Lucas on
- 70%+ possession, 21 shots (Sunderland 10), 15 on target (Sunderland 5), 2 clearcut chances missed -0 to Sunderland

Swansea (away) 3-2
- No Mane
- Klavan at CB, no Matip
- 73%+ possession, 16 shots (Swans 6), 5 on target (Swans 3)

Hull (away) 2-0
- Lucas at CB, no Lovren
- 72%+ possession, 22 shots (Hull 7)
- Terrible game for us going forward, caught on counter twice

Leicester (away) 3-1
- Lucas at CB, no Lovren
- 70% possession, 17 shots (Leicester 14)
- Poor down both ends of the pitch

Bournemouth (home) 2-2
- No Mane
- Klavan at CB, no Matip to start
- No Lallana
-Coutinho subbed off for Matip at 69 mins at 2-1 - they scored equalizer in 87th minute
- 66%+ possession, 20 shots (Bournemouth 8), 8 on target (Bournemouth 2), 3 clearcut chances missed - 2 to Bournemouth

Crystal Palace(home) 1-2
- No Mane
- 3 at the back
- No Lallana
-Subs only made in last 10mins, terrible bench
- Conceded both goals from crosses
- 72%+ possession, 14 shots (CP 7)







Most of the goals we conceded are either on the counter or from crosses. In most of the games, we've had more than double the possession of the opposition and more than double the attempts. Personally, I think Lovren & Matip are 2 of the best CBs in the league; the only reason I'd replace one of them (and it's a toss up between them for me) is to add a CB who is better at dealing with crosses. Down the other end, I think it's obvious we struggle when Mane in particular is not on the pitch. We concede more, score less, and are more prone to getting caught on the counter. Our forwards, Firmino and to a lesser extend Origi, are nowhere near clinical enough. They both need a number of good chances to be created for them to score, most top forwards create and take chances out of nothing.

We have conceded nearly 50 goals for 4 seasons on the bounce, of course we need to strengthen our defence.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Fri May 19, 2017 5:29 pm wrote:We have conceded nearly 50 goals for 4 seasons on the bounce, of course we need to strengthen our defence.

Agree it is an issue however I'm beginning to think with the way Klopp sets us up and and wants us to play, we will probably never be amongst the teams who  have the lowest goals against column. As individuals, think they are all good players (yes Milner is not a LB but overall don't think he has let anyone down this season).

Think the issue probably lies in midfield where maybe we are not putting out enough fires and really bossing teams while also having that driving force in their that can move us up the field quickly with the ball. Just that dynamism seems lacking in there.

I was watching Leicester v spurs last night and thought Dembele and Wanyama were brilliant as a partnership. If Kante is the best player in that defensive role, Wanyama isn't far off and for £11m he looks a steal. Got to admit, I always thought he was just a bruiser in midfield but he does looks very good.

That Naby Keita we've been linked with is meant to be in a similar mould so maybe he will be the answer although considering the amount of teams interested in him and the fact RB Leipzig are not exactly a club in need of cash and pushovers etc, not holding my breath on that one.

I understand the point ace is making but struggling to see that philosophy giving us success on a consistent basis. Maybe Klopp's philosophy is that attack is the best form of defence etc and when it comes off and you are penning in the opposition in and not giving them the opportunity to come at you, yes it looks great and is brilliant.

However over a 38 game league season plus europe/cups, you need a solid defensive system with good defensive players in place to fall back on. During the season, even with a bigger squad, injuries, loss of individual players form, tiredness etc come into play and don't think you always go out there thinking your attacking players will just pen in the oppo and thus easing up the pressure on the defence.

Apart from the issue with set pieces, we've had a knack of being done by a single ball being played in with acres of space with red shirts scrambling back. Don't think you can consistently challenge for titles with that kind of play imo

Interesting posts about our frailties. I agree Defensively we need to work things out. We need a solid DM in the middle to protect the back and front.

Also from the stats Ace posted it goes to show what we require is a clinical striker upfront. Yes we have scored a lot but look at the amount of chances we had. We should have put those games to bed.
Im sure Klopp will address these issues however as far a DM is concerned im not sure. I think he will stick with Hendo there.

The problem also is alot of teams have decided to play park the bus footy against us. Its in games like those you need quick, creative and decisive players.
That is why Klopp will sign a creative quick player. Im hoping someone who can slot into LW area.
Mane will bombard and stretch the bus on the right and our new LW doing the same the other side. It open ups the oppo and hence chances are created. I guess thats the point where we will require a clinical forward.

aCe' » Fri May 19, 2017 10:35 am wrote:

kazza » Thu May 18, 2017 12:44 am wrote:I would say that if we had a better defense we would have scored more goals. So many times this season a jittery defense encouraged the other team only for them to park the bus once they scored. If we had a better defense I think we will score more with the players we have since they will see more open games.

I'd argue the opposite. Look at the goals conceded when Mane (and to a lesser extent Coutinho) is out of the side. It's not a coincidence. When we have 70%+ possession and aren't able to create and take good chances, we commit more bodies forward and quite often end up conceding as a result.

I keep saying that this notion of 'improve defense, win more' is a flawed one because defending better imo would mean sacrificing a bit going forward. Our attacking play -and everyone will agree on this- is the only reason we are where we are in the league. I'd argue that if we were 10% better off defensively and 10% worse off going forward we wouldnt be in the top4 now. See Utd as a good example of a side that didnt take enough risks throughout the season.

A better way to look at it would be looking at the games where we've conceded goals and dropped points and seeing where small improvements can be made. The only games were we conceded 1 or no goals and haven't won have been against Spurs, Utd (x2), Southampton(x2), Chelsea, and City.

Off the bat, set pieces are an issue. If we had a Van Dijk instead of a Lovren, we'd concede less from set pieces and crosses. Outside that, you'd have to look at it on a per game basis to judge. For simplicity, I've looked at the games where we conceded 2 or more goals in the league.

In 11 games were we conceded 2 or more, we won 2, drew 3, and lost 6. Disregard the 2 we won.

Burnley (away) 2-0
- No Mane
- Klavanat CB, no Matip
- 80%+ possession, 26 shots (burnley 3), 5 on target (burnley 2)

Bournemouth (away) 4-3
- Mane subbed off at 69mins with us winning 1-3
- Lucas at CBno Matip
- No Lallana, no Coutinho
-They scored 3 in last 15mins
- 60%+ possession, 2 clearcut chances missed -0 to Bournemouth

West Ham (home) 2-2
- No Coutinho
- 67%+ possession, 19 shots (West Ham 8)

Sunderland (away) 2-2
- No Coutinho
- Klavan at CBno Matip
- conceded from 2 penalties (equalizer in 84th min) after taking forward off and bringing Lucas on
- 70%+ possession, 21 shots (Sunderland 10), 15 on target (Sunderland 5), 2 clearcut chances missed -0 to Sunderland

Swansea (away) 3-2
- No Mane
- Klavan at CB, no Matip
- 73%+ possession, 16 shots (Swans 6), 5 on target (Swans 3)

Hull (away) 2-0
- Lucas at CB, no Lovren
- 72%+ possession, 22 shots (Hull 7)
- Terrible game for us going forward, caught on counter twice

Leicester (away) 3-1
- Lucas at CB, no Lovren
- 70% possession, 17 shots (Leicester 14)
- Poor down both ends of the pitch

Bournemouth (home) 2-2
- No Mane
- Klavan at CB, no Matip to start
- No Lallana
-Coutinho subbed off for Matip at 69 mins at 2-1 - they scored equalizer in 87th minute
- 66%+ possession, 20 shots (Bournemouth 8), 8 on target (Bournemouth 2), 3 clearcut chances missed - 2 to Bournemouth

Crystal Palace(home) 1-2
- No Mane
- 3 at the back
- No Lallana
-Subs only made in last 10mins, terrible bench
- Conceded both goals from crosses
- 72%+ possession, 14 shots (CP 7)







Most of the goals we conceded are either on the counter or from crosses. In most of the games, we've had more than double the possession of the opposition and more than double the attempts. Personally, I think Lovren & Matip are 2 of the best CBs in the league; the only reason I'd replace one of them (and it's a toss up between them for me) is to add a CB who is better at dealing with crosses. Down the other end, I think it's obvious we struggle when Mane in particular is not on the pitch. We concede more, score less, and are more prone to getting caught on the counter. Our forwards, Firmino and to a lesser extend Origi, are nowhere near clinical enough. They both need a number of good chances to be created for them to score, most top forwards create and take chances out of nothing.

It seems clear to me that almost every result you posted we had Klavan or Lucas at CB so surely we need  a world class CB? If Lovren was our backup surely we would have conceded less in that example? I do think that a quicker forward would certainly improve us but the priority should be improving the defense first as that is glaring and at the very least we need better than Klavan or Lucas at CB.

Linked to Monaco left back Benjamin Mendy, again a brilliant player but there will be a queue a mile long to sign him.

We really could do with getting one of these A grade players in, not just to buy a top player but to attract more to the project and give fans a sense of the ambition at Anfield.