Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:20 pm

News just came in that Man City bought Kevin De Bruyne for 55 million rising to 57 million breaking their transfer record of 50 million (or is it 49) they paid for Sterling. 55 feckin millions! just think about it. De Bruyne is a good midfielder no doubt, but he is still a young rising star. What I'm saying is he is not an accomplished world class star like let's say Suarez. First it was Sterling, a one dimensional albeit promising player for 49-50 and now de Bruyne for 55 million.

And here most of us were pleasantly surprised that we splashed 29 million on Firmino, in a season we are without CL football. We think that "wow, a 30 million player, not too bad...". Back in 2007, or was it 2008, the Mancs bought 2 midfield players, Anderson and Nani, for 20 million each to strengthen their aging squad, and that is when they were still champions. Back then, we were like " wow the Mancs can spend 20 million on one player, we can't spend that on a single player, not without selling first..."

And now it's the age of 50 million on one first team player. Times are changing. Most Liverpool fans still seem to think that money doesn't buy you success. It seems like not only are we falling behind in terms of the club's actually spending power, we are also falling behind in terms of the fans' expectations on how much we should spend on good first team players in order to be competitive.

Are they just exceptionally rich money clubs who can spend or are we as a club and fans falling behind? Discuss...

by **Doeboy** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:25 am

All this TV money is allowing midtable teams such as West Ham, Swansea, Stoke etc to build not only good first teams, but pretty decent squads to. Decent players from the continent will happily sign for midtable clubs here due to the wages they can offer.

My fear is these so called lesser teams are closing the gap on us more than ourselves closing the gap on the likes of City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd due to all this money.

Make no mistake about it, this season is going to throw up more surprises for the top 5-6 teams in terms of results against lower placed teams.

I really do think we need a game changer of some sort to be up in the reckoning again

by **C-R** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:35 am

Doeboy » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:25 am wrote:All this TV money is allowing midtable teams such as West Ham, Swansea, Stoke etc to build not only good first teams, but pretty decent squads to. Decent players from the continent will happily sign for midtable clubs here due to the wages they can offer.

My fear is these so called lesser teams are closing the gap on us more than ourselves closing the gap on the likes of City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd due to all this money.

Make no mistake about it, this season is going to throw up more surprises for the top 5-6 teams in terms of results against lower placed teams.

I really do think we need a game changer of some sort to be up in the reckoning again

That's a really good post mate, makes total sense

I just have no idea where we will find our game changer, players like Suarez come along once in a geneation, if that

by **johnbarnes** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:46 am

Doeboy » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:25 am wrote:All this TV money is allowing midtable teams such as West Ham, Swansea, Stoke etc to build not only good first teams, but pretty decent squads to. Decent players from the continent will happily sign for midtable clubs here due to the wages they can offer.

My fear is these so called lesser teams are closing the gap on us more than ourselves closing the gap on the likes of City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd due to all this money.

Make no mistake about it, this season is going to throw up more surprises for the top 5-6 teams in terms of results against lower placed teams.

I really do think we need a game changer of some sort to be up in the reckoning again

In a way. Having a A$$e$ handed to us by the so called lesser clubs should be a blessing in disguise.
FSG will receive a heavy dose of reality along with its management team.
TV revenue has changed things. But let's not forget, LFC boasts one the most wealthy global fanbase / stadium revenue streams in the world. This will edge out the so called lesser teams as we have seen over the generations.
I'm sure a good kick up the ar$e a few changes is all LFC need to get going again.

by **RedAnt** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:48 am

I guess we still cling vainly to the old ideals, hoping that heart, spirit and tradition will still win the day over money and cold, hard logic. With each passing season we become more like fossils. A once mighty, top-of-the-range tank, rusting away, it's crew talking about the "old days".
It's not so long ago that the first team was built around scousers, coming through the ranks. Plenty of them. Now clubs stockpile promising youngsters and send them out on loan, taking a near stakeless punt in the likes of Sterling who isn't even fit to polish Fowlers boots.
There's little place for some of BRs favourite terms today. Things like character and honesty. Money is just about everything. Not just in football. Everywhere.

by **Reg** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:36 am

I've been mulling over the following for a few weeks - since the Tour de France because that's where the theory comes from.

Cycling teams start with their team leader then build around him - climbers, fast flat country riders and simple work horses. Team Sky's leader and twice Tour de France winner is Chris Froome. Richie Porte and Geraint Thomas are their mountain leaders pulling Froome up the hills and negating attacks from other GC riders. Sky have flat country and lower hill work horses who pull the team along on non-mountain days so the mountain guys can rest. And so on...

Liverpool sold Suarez and Sterling and didn't replace them, let Stevie go and didn't replace. WTF?
Would Sky sell Froome and not replace their key man? Would Saxo Tinkov let Contador go and not replace him? NO WAY !!!

Liverpool spent a fortune on support players and NO LEADER. We bought the cycling equivalent of mountain men and work horses but no winner.

Liverpool must start with the MAIN MAN then build the team around him. Imagine we'd bought a 70-80 million Torres style of striker, kept Sterling and added 2-3 specific key position class players to complement the key man's style. Instead we have a team of work horses without the key man to convert their work into results. A squad with no leader, a furniture company with no skilled cabinet maker.

We must start with the key player then build around him, instead we're leaderless and toothless and won't succeed until we change it.

If you look at our squad strikers who we are reliant to win us games: Firmino (untested), Benteke (average), Sturridge (injury prone), Borini (cr@p), Ings (untested), Origi (untested). To get to this point we sold Lambert (zero contribution) and Balotelli (misfit).

How do we expect to score goals, win matches and move up the league with no star striker?? It simply aint going to happen. We have a team of workhorses pushing the ball up field to no established star man up front. We need another Torres, we STILL haven't replaced him.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:11 am

Reg » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:36 am wrote:I've been mulling over the following for a few weeks - since the Tour de France because that's where the theory comes from.

Cycling teams start with their team leader then build around him - climbers, fast flat country riders and simple work horses. Team Sky's leader and twice Tour de France winner is Chris Froome. Richie Porte and Geraint Thomas are their mountain leaders pulling Froome up the hills and negating attacks from other GC riders. Sky have flat country and lower hill work horses who pull the team along on non-mountain days so the mountain guys can rest. And so on...

Liverpool sold Suarez and Sterling and didn't replace them, let Stevie go and didn't replace. WTF?
Would Sky sell Froome and not replace their key man? Would Saxo Tinkov let Contador go and not replace him? NO WAY !!!

Liverpool spent a fortune on support players and NO LEADER. We bought the cycling equivalent of mountain men and work horses but no winner.

Liverpool must start with the MAIN MAN then build the team around him. Imagine we'd bought a 70-80 million Torres style of striker, kept Sterling and added 2-3 specific key position class players to complement the key man's style. Instead we have a team of work horses without the key man to convert their work into results. A squad with no leader, a furniture company with no skilled cabinet maker.

We must start with the key player then build around him, instead we're leaderless and toothless and won't succeed until we change it.

If you look at our squad strikers who we are reliant to win us games: Firmino (untested), Benteke (average), Sturridge (injury prone), Borini (cr@p), Ings (untested), Origi (untested). To get to this point we sold Lambert (zero contribution) and Balotelli (misfit).

How do we expect to score goals, win matches and move up the league with no star striker?? It simply aint going to happen. We have a team of workhorses pushing the ball up field to no established star man up front. We need another Torres, we STILL haven't replaced him.

Even though I don't agree with some of the specifics in your post such as the implication of sterling as Obe of tge main players, I agree in general. That's why I keep saying BR neglected to strengthen the core of the team. I do believe that we have a decent strike force In Benteke, Sturridge, Ings and Origi. But they need a stronger core to support them.

Even if we talk about a striker of Torres' calibre, I have posted before, during Benitez reign that the reason Gerrard and torres were so devastating is actually due to Alonso and Masherano, (more to do with Alonso). Alonso's effortless distribution from defense to attack releases Gerrard who could also spot Torres' runs into spaces, the world class player he is. Masherano as you know would hound the opposition relentlessly putting pressure on them.

Anyway, I think that we should spend higher amount of money on key players (such as Barkley) which we desperately need rather than spending (still quite alot) on attacking players.

by **RedAnt** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:15 am

Good post that, Reg.
Its all those words again. Character, leadership, identity. We don't seem to have any. Is Hendo really our captain and poster boy? With all due respect to him that emphasises the point perfectly. Suarez, Torres, Gerrard, those were the guys to see on posters, or the backs of replica kit. As Reg says, our problem is that we promote players like Hendo into Gerrards boots rather than find the correct replacements. So everyone moves up a notch. Hendo moved up to star player.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:32 am

I think we all know that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us but the idea of bringing in someone with a clear philosophy like Brendan was so that we could punch above our weight.
Over the last 12 months though we haven't been doing that, in fact last season we ended up finishing 6th when 5th looked in the bag so if anything we have been going the other way i.e finishing below where we should.
We fell from 2nd to 6th last year which is a pretty significant drop especially when you consider we had £100m+ to spend, I'm not saying he didn't have a tough job on his hands after losing Suarez but I don't think he made the most of the resources available to him either.
We need a coach that can achieve more with less and I don't think Brendan is that man anymore, we just look a million miles away from a good side and have done for months and months. Abandoning his philosophy was the final straw for me.

by **johnbarnes** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:34 pm

LFC simply can not replace the likes of SG, LS with BR in charge.
Mark Hughes (for the record I rate higher than BR) was relieved of his position at Man City because of the same reason. MH simply could not recruit the players from the level of which Man City were / are heading. Results weren't too bad for Sh!tie when MH was in charge, just like LFC's results aren't too bad under BR. The results simple are not good enough!
Citie had the $$$$ to make quick changes. LFC are heading in the right direction financially. Once all the relevant $$$ pieces are put in place BR will simply not survive. FSG are just hoping he lasts as long as they'd hoped for. FSG are using BR just as much as BR is using LFC IMO

by **johnbarnes** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:39 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:32 am wrote:I think we all know that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us but the idea of bringing in someone with a clear philosophy like Brendan was so that we could punch above our weight.
Over the last 12 months though we haven't been doing that, in fact last season we ended up finishing 6th when 5th looked in the bag so if anything we have been going the other way i.e finishing below where we should.
We fell from 2nd to 6th last year which is a pretty significant drop especially when you consider we had £100m+ to spend, I'm not saying he didn't have a tough job on his hands after losing Suarez but I don't think he made the most of the resources available to him either.
We need a coach that can achieve more with less and I don't think Brendan is that man anymore, we just look a million miles away from a good side and have done for months and months. Abandoning his philosophy was the final straw for me.

KLOPP fits and ticks all the current boxes. My fear is that FSG fear a manager who WILL be DEMANDING of them. Not financially but of COMMITMENT to the institution of LFC! KLOPP has the potential not only to be great at LFC but also to be a splinter in the A$$ of the owners in the way RAFA was to Tweedle Dee & Dumb.

by **Reg** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:48 pm

So BR has the same problem as Roy Evans had? It's his inability to dominate the players? Is that sort of hinted at by bringing in Gary Mac?

by **eds** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:25 am

johnbarnes » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:39 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:32 am wrote:I think we all know that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us but the idea of bringing in someone with a clear philosophy like Brendan was so that we could punch above our weight.
Over the last 12 months though we haven't been doing that, in fact last season we ended up finishing 6th when 5th looked in the bag so if anything we have been going the other way i.e finishing below where we should.
We fell from 2nd to 6th last year which is a pretty significant drop especially when you consider we had £100m+ to spend, I'm not saying he didn't have a tough job on his hands after losing Suarez but I don't think he made the most of the resources available to him either.
We need a coach that can achieve more with less and I don't think Brendan is that man anymore, we just look a million miles away from a good side and have done for months and months. Abandoning his philosophy was the final straw for me.

KLOPP fits and ticks all the current boxes. My fear is that FSG fear a manager who WILL be DEMANDING of them. Not financially but of COMMITMENT to the institution of LFC! KLOPP has the potential not only to be great at LFC but also to be a splinter in the A$$ of the owners in the way RAFA was to Tweedle Dee & Dumb.

Barnsey, you have hit the nail on the head on why we are so f**ked.

FSG will never appoint a manager that challenges them and their myopic view of sport and how a football club should be managed.

These clowns have been obsessed with being able to win through an unconventional mix of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo mathematical pseudo nonsense. This mixed in with an almost psychotic obsession in restricting our trade to under 25yo players has led to our current downfall. It has bred exactly the club culture that Reg has described above.

How else can you explain the long list of flops we have had since they have taken over? A lot of it falls on Rodgers, but I'm not convinced everything is his fault, I think a lot of this rubbish has come from the internal politics and machinations of our football club. Created by..........you know who.

The only problem is that they have done such a great job in brain-washing the unwashed, they have a legion of lemmings defending them and their interests, so getting rid of them will not be as easy as the previous pair of swindlers we had. Unfortunately I still think it will take another good 5-7 years before they wash, rinse and repeat one too many times, with the same type of a Rodgers like manager before the wool is finally lifted off everyone's eyes. :no

by **Reg** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:37 am

Eds, you're the form champ as spouting self opinionated expert opinions on something which you have no knowledge of.

How can you say ' FSG will never appoint a manager that challenges them and their myopic view of sport and how a football club should be managed'..... before adding your traditional general swipe at anyone who doesn't agree with your simplistic view of the world.

Come on mate, take a deep one and try to stay in the real world.

by **johnbarnes** » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:52 am

eds » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:25 am wrote:
johnbarnes » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:39 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:32 am wrote:I think we all know that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us but the idea of bringing in someone with a clear philosophy like Brendan was so that we could punch above our weight.
Over the last 12 months though we haven't been doing that, in fact last season we ended up finishing 6th when 5th looked in the bag so if anything we have been going the other way i.e finishing below where we should.
We fell from 2nd to 6th last year which is a pretty significant drop especially when you consider we had £100m+ to spend, I'm not saying he didn't have a tough job on his hands after losing Suarez but I don't think he made the most of the resources available to him either.
We need a coach that can achieve more with less and I don't think Brendan is that man anymore, we just look a million miles away from a good side and have done for months and months. Abandoning his philosophy was the final straw for me.

KLOPP fits and ticks all the current boxes. My fear is that FSG fear a manager who WILL be DEMANDING of them. Not financially but of COMMITMENT to the institution of LFC! KLOPP has the potential not only to be great at LFC but also to be a splinter in the A$$ of the owners in the way RAFA was to Tweedle Dee & Dumb.

Barnsey, you have hit the nail on the head on why we are so f**ked.

FSG will never appoint a manager that challenges them and their myopic view of sport and how a football club should be managed.

These clowns have been obsessed with being able to win through an unconventional mix of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo mathematical pseudo nonsense. This mixed in with an almost psychotic obsession in restricting our trade to under 25yo players has led to our current downfall. It has bred exactly the club culture that Reg has described above.

How else can you explain the long list of flops we have had since they have taken over? A lot of it falls on Rodgers, but I'm not convinced everything is his fault, I think a lot of this rubbish has come from the internal politics and machinations of our football club. Created by..........you know who.

The only problem is that they have done such a great job in brain-washing the unwashed, they have a legion of lemmings defending them and their interests, so getting rid of them will not be as easy as the previous pair of swindlers we had. Unfortunately I still think it will take another good 5-7 years before they wash, rinse and repeat one too many times, with the same type of a Rodgers like manager before the wool is finally lifted off everyone's eyes.

I understand your perspective view Eds and it's very frustrating to watch this all play out. I remain hopeful that FSG are still in faze one of their master plan.

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