Liverpool FC Forum

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:16 pm

RedAnt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:51 am wrote:Seems some of the pro-Rodgers fans are starting to catch up with what the Whinge Committee could see quite clearly and were mocked for.
FSG should have sacked him after last season rather than sacrifice another season. The club is like a toy to these people. Another year under Rodgers will be disastrous. Fact is he could have all the money in the world to spend but still the big names wouldn't want to play for him. Nobody else wanted Firmino or Benteke. They're decent enough players but with the likes of Milner and Hendo for company I doubt we'll see anything like positive consistency. I have no hope for this season.

I think 4 seasons in we shouldn't be looking as disjointed as this. The Stoke performance was a cure for insomnia and we rode our luck big time against Bournemouth and Arsenal, if the officials would have done their jobs properly we would have lost both of those games.
If this poor start was out of the blue then you'd say fair enough but it just looks like a continuation of our form from last year, I just feel that we have been going backwards for 12 months not just 4 games and what makes it worse is that we have spent near £200m in that time too.

by **johnbarnes** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:34 pm

Two points I'd like to make...

1. BR should have made a wonderful No.2 for a manager with World Class experience. E.G. Carlo Ancelotti (just an example, not that I want him to manage LFC)
Unfortunately, EGO plays a big part of modern football and there is no way BR would take a step down (from manager of Swansea to LFC no.2). But this should have been the deal on the table 4 seasons ago.

2. I am an admirer of FSG and its portfolio of sports business'.
HOWEVER - They are new to football; with some of their ideas on/off the field having been a successful, but then other ideas that have failed. There are still too many 'YES MEN' at the club who are getting PAID IN FULL with no accountability to the decisions they make. Once FSG employ a structure of accountability at the top end of the club, then I'm sure we'll see much improvement.

It's not all doom and gloom. LFC's playing staff is full of bright young talent. We only lack leaders. 1 leader to lead the playing staff + 2 leaders to lead the team.
We do have an excellent spine at the club, however BR just isn't up to the task of deploying it into place.

No one is as upset as myself when LFC loses on match days. I've just learnt over the years to get on with life. The sad irony to that is if the above is to be realised, LFC's downward spiral will need to continue. As a fan, I simply can not support that, leaving me with no option but too HOPE for the best in our next game. And the game after that and after that...

by **maguskwt** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:35 pm

RedAnt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:51 am wrote:Seems some of the pro-Rodgers fans are starting to catch up with what the Whinge Committee could see quite clearly and were mocked for.
FSG should have sacked him after last season rather than sacrifice another season. The club is like a toy to these people. Another year under Rodgers will be disastrous. Fact is he could have all the money in the world to spend but still the big names wouldn't want to play for him. Nobody else wanted Firmino or Benteke. They're decent enough players but with the likes of Milner and Hendo for company I doubt we'll see anything like positive consistency. I have no hope for this season.

Some of our, well at least mine anyway, contention is that BR deserves to be given time based on the performance of the 2nd half of his 1st season and the title challenging 2nd season, where BR had gone closer than any other manager in winning the title. The 3rd season was somewhat of a re-build. However, if BR does not learn from his mistakes, and it's looking more and more likely the case, then surely it maybe time for a change, especially since alot of people pointed out, a manager of Klopp's calibre is available. Having said that, we should not overreact after one loss, we need to see how the team does until Christmas.
The thing with BR losing his philosophy, as pointed out by yakka though, I kind of feel for BR. I think he changed his original philosophy which is seen in the 2nd half of first season and his second season, due to tremendous pressure and fear from failure. Now, because of that the team appears to be neither here nor there which makes things alot worse.

by **johnbarnes** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:06 pm

maguskwt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:35 pm wrote:
RedAnt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:51 am wrote:Seems some of the pro-Rodgers fans are starting to catch up with what the Whinge Committee could see quite clearly and were mocked for.
FSG should have sacked him after last season rather than sacrifice another season. The club is like a toy to these people. Another year under Rodgers will be disastrous. Fact is he could have all the money in the world to spend but still the big names wouldn't want to play for him. Nobody else wanted Firmino or Benteke. They're decent enough players but with the likes of Milner and Hendo for company I doubt we'll see anything like positive consistency. I have no hope for this season.

Some of our, well at least mine anyway, contention is that BR deserves to be given time based on the performance of the 2nd half of his 1st season and the title challenging 2nd season, where BR had gone closer than any other manager in winning the title. The 3rd season was somewhat of a re-build. However, if BR does not learn from his mistakes, and it's looking more and more likely the case, then surely it maybe time for a change, especially since alot of people pointed out, a manager of Klopp's calibre is available. Having said that, we should not overreact after one loss, we need to see how the team does until Christmas.
The thing with BR losing his philosophy, as pointed out by yakka though, I kind of feel for BR. I think he changed his original philosophy which is seen in the 2nd half of first season and his second season, due to tremendous pressure and fear from failure. Now, because of that the team appears to be neither here nor there which makes things alot worse.

The points above is what concerns so many supporters.
1. A change in philosophy should not be detrimental to results. All top managers have proven this.
2. 3rd season should not have been a re-build but an underlining to what development and results had taken place.
3. Top managers across the continent are now available.
--------
4. And this grates me the most. I have listened / read so many opinions that BR took LFC closer than any other manager since our last title. NO ONE can argue against the stats, so my point is always on the losing end of the actual stats / evidence. HOWEVER:
4a. BR had no European football to contend with that season
4b. Man Utd was in shell shock after losing their manager of 27 years
4c. A retired Man Utd manager who could control the English FA / FA Officials with the wave of his Knighthood
4d. Chelsea were under new management
4e. Wenger ensured that Arsenal were just good at being Arsenal
Hence why Man City were our closet rivals / champions.
4f. LFC had the hottest striker in the world BLASTING goals in from all corners of L4 and beyond and a striking partnership that was setting countless records. I give BR credit for the signing of DS but not LS!

All in all BR had SO MUCH going in his favour that ONE season. 4 seasons into his reign and 1 full season on from THAT ONE SEASON and what are we left with?
I thought the years and years of generations coming and going to see the re-development of Anfield was bad enough. But under BR there is a good chance of LFC completing new stand structures to all 4 stands before he builds a team.
SQUAD BUILDER, BRENDAN IS NOT...

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:11 pm

maguskwt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:35 pm wrote:
RedAnt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:51 am wrote:Seems some of the pro-Rodgers fans are starting to catch up with what the Whinge Committee could see quite clearly and were mocked for.
FSG should have sacked him after last season rather than sacrifice another season. The club is like a toy to these people. Another year under Rodgers will be disastrous. Fact is he could have all the money in the world to spend but still the big names wouldn't want to play for him. Nobody else wanted Firmino or Benteke. They're decent enough players but with the likes of Milner and Hendo for company I doubt we'll see anything like positive consistency. I have no hope for this season.

Some of our, well at least mine anyway, contention is that BR deserves to be given time based on the performance of the 2nd half of his 1st season and the title challenging 2nd season, where BR had gone closer than any other manager in winning the title. The 3rd season was somewhat of a re-build. However, if BR does not learn from his mistakes, and it's looking more and more likely the case, then surely it maybe time for a change, especially since alot of people pointed out, a manager of Klopp's calibre is available. Having said that, we should not overreact after one loss, we need to see how the team does until Christmas.
The thing with BR losing his philosophy, as pointed out by yakka though, I kind of feel for BR. I think he changed his original philosophy which is seen in the 2nd half of first season and his second season, due to tremendous pressure and fear from failure. Now, because of that the team appears to be neither here nor there which makes things alot worse.

Good post mate and it shouldn't be forgotten that under Brendan we witnessed some of the best football probably ever seen at Anfield and if he was still going down that road philosophy wise I'd still be supporting him.
But we aren't trying to integrate players like Markovic and Ilorri into the side, players like that are being marginalised while yeomen like Lovren and Milner are being pushed to the fore. When Brendan first arrived he spoke about wanting our CB's to be 'brave' on the ball and if there were any f[uck] up's he'd take the blame, now we are hoofing it up to Benteke.
Another of the first things he did was get rid of Andy Carroll because he wasn't dynamic enough to cope with the high intensity pressing game that he wanted to employ, what happened to that? We don't swarm teams or hunt in packs anymore. In fact we look about as far from his original vision of a 'Barcelona on the banks of the Mersey' that is humanly possible.
He has lost his way imo.

by **johnbarnes** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:21 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:11 pm wrote:
maguskwt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:35 pm wrote:
RedAnt » Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:51 am wrote:Seems some of the pro-Rodgers fans are starting to catch up with what the Whinge Committee could see quite clearly and were mocked for.
FSG should have sacked him after last season rather than sacrifice another season. The club is like a toy to these people. Another year under Rodgers will be disastrous. Fact is he could have all the money in the world to spend but still the big names wouldn't want to play for him. Nobody else wanted Firmino or Benteke. They're decent enough players but with the likes of Milner and Hendo for company I doubt we'll see anything like positive consistency. I have no hope for this season.

Some of our, well at least mine anyway, contention is that BR deserves to be given time based on the performance of the 2nd half of his 1st season and the title challenging 2nd season, where BR had gone closer than any other manager in winning the title. The 3rd season was somewhat of a re-build. However, if BR does not learn from his mistakes, and it's looking more and more likely the case, then surely it maybe time for a change, especially since alot of people pointed out, a manager of Klopp's calibre is available. Having said that, we should not overreact after one loss, we need to see how the team does until Christmas.
The thing with BR losing his philosophy, as pointed out by yakka though, I kind of feel for BR. I think he changed his original philosophy which is seen in the 2nd half of first season and his second season, due to tremendous pressure and fear from failure. Now, because of that the team appears to be neither here nor there which makes things alot worse.

Good post mate and it shouldn't be forgotten that under Brendan we witnessed some of the best football probably ever seen at Anfield and if he was still going down that road philosophy wise I'd still be supporting him.
But we aren't trying to integrate players like Markovic and Ilorri into the side, players like that are being marginalised while yeomen like Lovren and Milner are being pushed to the fore. When Brendan first arrived he spoke about wanting our CB's to be 'brave' on the ball and if there were any f[uck] up's he'd take the blame, now we are hoofing it up to Benteke.
Another of the first things he did was get rid of Andy Carroll because he wasn't dynamic enough to cope with the high intensity pressing game that he wanted to employ, what happened to that? We don't swarm teams or hunt in packs anymore. In fact we look about as far from his original vision of a 'Barcelona on the banks of the Mersey' that is humanly possible.
He has lost his way imo.

Players make football exciting not managers.
Remember Houllier's philosophy?
But the football was still exiting because of Fowler, Owen, Gerrard. GMac etc...
Yes a manager can say "attack, attack, attack." But it's the players who go out and do it.
If this was not the case. LFC would still be playing the same way now as we were 2 seasons ago.
If this were not the case, fans would not celebrate the like of Maradona, Pele etc - but praise and worship their managers? I think not...
A managers input is imperative up to the point when the team crosses the line. Then a managers input is decreased drastically.

by **sgs** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:02 pm

Replacing Rogers is a decision that should be based squarely on his performance and prospects for the future, not driven by the fantasy of availability of Klopp. That's not how to make a proper management decision.

But having said that, the loss to West Ham is extremely troubling to me and should cause FSG to seriously consider his position...

The loss is far more significant than the scoreline, abysmal as that is.

You spend all week speaking about how much work and improvement ur defence has made and you concede in 2.5mins of the very next game!

It shows clear evidence that the manager either overestimated the work he had done, or it simply is not what he claimed it to be...

More importantly, the game showed a clear lack of balance, this time wrt creativity.

Two fundamental issues that have bedeviled his tenure...

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:11 pm

Another thing which bothers me is that I think we have blown the family silver. We have spent a fortune these last 2 summers but both those spending spree's were funded by the sales of Suarez and Sterling. Even if we bring in a new manager I don't think we'll be spending that type of money again, not until we get back into the CL anyway.
I'm not saying all that is down to Brendan, the TC have had a major role to play in that as well but whoever is to blame we as a club missed a great opportunity to put together a side that could have seen us through the next decade, instead we have a team built around a spine of Mingolet, Lovren, Skrtel, Milner and Hendo.
What a mess.

by **JC_81** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:27 pm

I think it's harsh that after one defeat Klopp's name has been getting thrown about.

For those of you praying for Klopp, how much do you actually know about him?

7 seasons at Dortmund - 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th. They tailed off spectacularly over the last few seasons.

They lost players yes, but those brought in over the past few seasons were nowhere near the quality of those that left. Does that raise questions about Klopp's recruitment?

Actually most of Dortmunds star players were brought in while klopp was there - Hummels, Lewandowski, Reus, Gundogan etc. But who signed them?? Klopp regards himself as 'head coach' and not a manager. His title has always been very clearly stated. Does that mean that if he did come in he would also have to work with the transfer committee? Perhaps he would be happy to as someone who seemingly sees his role as a coach rather than being overly involved in the player recruitment side. Is this what we want?

I would also question whether the guy is burnt out as a manager. He's only 47 but saw his team rise to the peak of European football before seeing his stars picked off by his main rivals in front of him. His team had been on the slide for 3 seasons and last season he simply looked a broken man as Dortmund slid down the league.

Whatever my views on Rodgers are, if he went I would have serious reservations about Klopp.

by **RedAnt** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:33 pm

I'm not basing my opinion on four games of this season. As Yakka said, it's a continuation. Our last 6 league games have been awful. It's the foundations that are wrong. The spine, not just of the team, but of the club. So many mistakes! But the biggest mistake of all is for FSG to allow Brendan to have his shake up of the staff and then to generously fund another spending spree only to discover that yep, the manager is the core problem that other problems emanate from. It'd have been much cheaper and effective to remove this one man than all of the others who left. Like I said, our club is just a toy to these people.

by **johnbarnes** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:34 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:11 pm wrote:Another thing which bothers me is that I think we have blown the family silver. We have spent a fortune these last 2 summers but both those spending spree's were funded by the sales of Suarez and Sterling. Even if we bring in a new manager I don't think we'll be spending that type of money again, not until we get back into the CL anyway.
I'm not saying all that is down to Brendan, the TC have had a major role to play in that as well but whoever is to blame we as a club missed a great opportunity to put together a side that could have seen us through the next decade, instead we have a team built around a spine of Mingolet, Lovren, Skrtel, Milner and Hendo.
What a mess.

As written previously ycsatbjywtbiastkamb
Once FSG oust out the 'Yes Men' and recruit those who firmly believe that LFC is a footballing dynasty, then we'll see a transformation.
I may be wrong, but didn't both Barcelona and Bayern Munich go through similar periods? (Anyway, beside the point, just writing as I think)
The squad isn't that bad. They just can not learn at the rate they should because the personnel at the club just doesn't exist.
We got rid of all our winners around the club and kept but a few. Coming to work at LFC should not only be an honour but also a reminder of expectations.
Can we truly believe that Hendo understands what it means to be an LFC captain? Albeit I do rate him as a footballer.
Our previous Vice-Captains going back how long had more experience and pitch influence and respect than our current Captain.

by **johnbarnes** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:51 pm

JC_81 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:27 pm wrote:I think it's harsh that after one defeat Klopp's name has been getting thrown about.

For those of you praying for Klopp, how much do you actually know about him?

7 seasons at Dortmund - 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th. They tailed off spectacularly over the last few seasons.

They lost players yes, but those brought in over the past few seasons were nowhere near the quality of those that left. Does that raise questions about Klopp's recruitment?

Actually most of Dortmunds star players were brought in while klopp was there - Hummels, Lewandowski, Reus, Gundogan etc. But who signed them?? Klopp regards himself as 'head coach' and not a manager. His title has always been very clearly stated. Does that mean that if he did come in he would also have to work with the transfer committee? Perhaps he would be happy to as someone who seemingly sees his role as a coach rather than being overly involved in the player recruitment side. Is this what we want?

7 seasons at Dortmund - 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th.

Red highlight is a wet dream to LFC fans.
The reality is, that LFC only need to win one championship and the whole club and football reality changes. One Championship buys the manager who gets it at least a decade of patience from the fans. We are fickle, but not that fickle...

by **RedAnt** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:23 pm

johnbarnes » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:51 pm wrote:
JC_81 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:27 pm wrote:I think it's harsh that after one defeat Klopp's name has been getting thrown about.

For those of you praying for Klopp, how much do you actually know about him?

7 seasons at Dortmund - 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th. They tailed off spectacularly over the last few seasons.

They lost players yes, but those brought in over the past few seasons were nowhere near the quality of those that left. Does that raise questions about Klopp's recruitment?

Actually most of Dortmunds star players were brought in while klopp was there - Hummels, Lewandowski, Reus, Gundogan etc. But who signed them?? Klopp regards himself as 'head coach' and not a manager. His title has always been very clearly stated. Does that mean that if he did come in he would also have to work with the transfer committee? Perhaps he would be happy to as someone who seemingly sees his role as a coach rather than being overly involved in the player recruitment side. Is this what we want?

7 seasons at Dortmund - 6th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th.

Red highlight is a wet dream to LFC fans.
The reality is, that LFC only need to win one championship and the whole club and football reality changes. One Championship buys the manager who gets it at least a decade of patience from the fans. We are fickle, but not that fickle...

Well said. Winning the league is a massive achievement and can only be a good thing. We all saw what happened after Rodgers ALMOST won it. At this point the fact that I hate BR has nothing to do with it. He should have gone because he's not good enough and not regarded highly in the football world. Just got to wait for FSG to catch up.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:34 pm

FSG are known to be prudent businessman. That's why I find it hard to belief that they still backed Rodgers in the summer.

Don't they know by doing so..they are throwing millions down the drain.

If only they had tried not to be too smart (ie....unearthing the next mourinho) and got a proven DOF and Manager (not a f**king youth coach masquerading as a manager).... I am pretty sure with $300M spent, we would have a team capable of matching up to the elite teams in Europe.

1)Fans are not staying for the final whistle
2)Asian tours were not sold out
3)We are in danger of not-becoming relevant

All the above, and the owners are putting on more seats in the stadium.

FSG shouldn't take the fans for granted. Its not as if they are off the hook, as long as they keep pumping money for transfer.

In a way Rodgers was kinda lucky the 6-1 happened on the last game of the season. If it was the 37th game, and the last game was at anfield (against any opposition), you can bet your bottom dollar, that the atmosphere would have been toxic. People would have been singing for rafa and/or klopp....

So a message to FSG....end the misery. You are owners of the 8th richest club in the world. We have won more European cups than any English team. We even have won more European cups than Barcelona. Stop going cheap with youth team coaches doubling up as head coaches.

We have a more than decent team. And it is being ruined by an utterly out of depth "ex-u18 reading youth-coach".

by **sgs** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:38 pm

It would indeed be a harsh decision to base it on one defeat.

For me its rather a pattern of established weaknesses that have persisted for four years, some of which he does not look like he can sufficiently address...

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