Liverpool FC Forum

Stu the Red » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:42 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:41 am wrote:There's five players in our defence.

End of.

And according to you they're all world class.

Not at all. I draw the line at calling them flops though.

Flanagan and Skrtel have been immense this season. Few would argue.

Johnson - Big let down. Great going forward but defensively awful at times. I reluctantly accept he's probably never going to be the player we need him to be.

Cissohko - Less said the better.

Agger - Injury prone and looks weaker, physically, that he ever has.

Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, distribution or tackling.

Mignolet - Not the best but definitely not as bad as you make out. His biggest weakness I see is that he is too reliant on the defence as a whole having a good game. You rarely see him standing out from the rest when things go pear shaped. Reina did offer that.

If Rodgers can sign another fullback and CB to partner Skrtel. I think our defence will tighten up dramatically. I would love to have Reina back but I wouldn't advocate spending money on replacing Mignolet. The money is better spend elsewhere.

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:49 am wrote:

Stu the Red » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:42 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:41 am wrote:There's five players in our defence.

End of.

And according to you they're all world class.

Not at all. I draw the line at calling them flops though.

Flanagan and Skrtel have been immense this season. Few would argue.

Johnson - Big let down. Great going forward but defensively awful at times. I reluctantly accept he's probably never going to be the player we need him to be.

Cissohko - Less said the better.

Agger - Injury prone and looks weaker, physically, that he ever has.

Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, distribution or tackling.

Mignolet - Not the best but definitely not as bad as you make out. His biggest weakness I see is that he is too reliant on the defence as a whole having a good game. You rarely see him standing out from the rest when things go pear shaped. Reina did offer that.

If Rodgers can sign another fullback and CB to partner Skrtel. I think our defence will tighten up dramatically. I would love to have Reina back but I wouldn't advocate spending money on replacing Mignolet. The money is better spend elsewhere.

One Comment ,Sakho and Skertel are 2 different CB's ,Martin is the more aggressive ,direct ,no sense type and Sakho is more balanced ,keep the ball moving type. You can't have 2 Skertel's in the team. Also let's not forget Skertel's main problem is consistency ,he had terrible games and season under his belt....Sakho is the our best CB going forward.

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:49 pm wrote:

Stu the Red » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:42 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:41 am wrote:There's five players in our defence.

End of.

And according to you they're all world class.

Not at all. I draw the line at calling them flops though.

Flanagan and Skrtel have been immense this season. Few would argue.

Johnson - Big let down. Great going forward but defensively awful at times. I reluctantly accept he's probably never going to be the player we need him to be.

Cissohko - Less said the better.

Agger - Injury prone and looks weaker, physically, that he ever has.

Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, distribution or tackling.

Mignolet - Not the best but definitely not as bad as you make out. His biggest weakness I see is that he is too reliant on the defence as a whole having a good game. You rarely see him standing out from the rest when things go pear shaped. Reina did offer that.

If Rodgers can sign another fullback and CB to partner Skrtel. I think our defence will tighten up dramatically. I would love to have Reina back but I wouldn't advocate spending money on replacing Mignolet. The money is better spend elsewhere.

Lemme give this a go.

Flanagan: Has all the will in the world but he's still not good enough. Honestly, he's been solid (largely) if unspectacular and h's yet to cost the team points. He's a 3rd choice type of player imo.

Skrtel : Is having his best season in a liverpool shirt. Still, he makes way too many mistakes and his positioning is too suspect for him to be considered a reliable long term CB option ina  title challenging side.

Agger:  Being a neat and classy ball playing defender aside, his positioning and concentration have not developed enough since he joined the club. Could have been a top CB if he had developed but being injury prone and not blessed with pace, I cant see him offering much more than he has. Fan favorite and all, but he looks the most likely to give way if we decide to bring someone in in the summer.

Sakho: I was probably the biggest advocate of the idea of us signing him and my opinion is still unchanged. He is yet to win all the supporters but I completely believe that in this lad, we have a world class CB in the making. I expect our defense to be built around him.

Enrique: Missed the entire season through injury but remains the best fullback at the club imo. Such a long lay off is bound to have its toll on the guy but I sincerely hope to have him somewhere near his best next season. Certainly good enough for a starting spot.

Johnson: Johnson is not a player I like criticizing. I remember disagreeing with Stu in the beginning of the season about what Johnson brings to the table and -despite a string of disappointing performances from him- I still think that what he brings to the table is better than what others like Flanagan and Kelly at RB offer. The shape of the side with Johnson in there ad our ability to control the ball in the final third of opposition are both better with him in the side. Defensively and in terms of attacking impact, he has declined and quite frankly doesn't offer enough. If we can bring someone in then excellent. If not then I dont think it will be as big a problem for us as some envision.   

Mignolet: For me, he has been the weakest link in our back 5 this season. And yes, I do include Flanagan in that comparison. He has been a step down from Reina (and Reina's FORM had dropped in the last season before his departure) and the sooner we bring in a replacement the better.

Flanagan - has been fantastic since his introduction. However, his inexperience shows and has costed us a few goals. Not good enough to be a starter (yet) but he would be my first choice back-up for both flanks for next season.

Skrtel - I agree, he's having a fantastic season. Although he has had some 5-6 games where he's looked like an absolute amateur, he's been very solid in most games. I'm not convinced that he should be our number one CB though because he's either world-class or an amateur and I'm worried that he might have more than just 5-6 amateur like games per season. Should definitely be kept for next season though.

Agger - Although he can be a world-class player once he builds some consistency, that rarely happens because of his injuries. Once he gets back from his injury he takes way too long to get his form back. Question mark for next season.

Sakho - I was a big fan of his even before we signed him and had to defend him a few times this season. I think that he has shown that he can be a fantastic player for us, but it's still early to tell if he's really the one that we should build our defense around since he's only played like 10 games for us. Certainly has the potential though.

Enrique - Was unfortunate to miss the season through injury but I think that he still has a future here. I agree with ace, he's our best full back and should be given a chance next season.

Johnson - Should be sold and replaced.

Mignolet - Looks more and more likely that I was wrong about him. Not my number one priority for improvement but Rodgers should consider it.

As for Toure - Had a fantastic start of the season when we probably needed him the most. However, his age shows and should be released so we could make room for Ilori.

Anyway, I think that our defenders have been doing an ungrateful job in an attacking side like us. We've conceded a lot of goals but I don't think that it's down to the defenders. Considering the little cover that they have, I'd say that the bigger problem is the midfield which allows too much pressure on us and very often can't control the game. The biggest problem however is probably tactical, as much as Rodgers refuses to admit it.

For next season, I would much rather see a new midfielder that can protect the back 4 rather than a new defender. I don't think that we'll see too many changes in defense. Johnson will probably go and will be replaced while Toure will make room for Ilori. I expect the rest to stay.

I just cant pick out this cultured and decisive player other fans see when it comes to Sakho ,and exactly how fans see him as evolving into an integral component
and someone to build our defence around, I'm afraid I just find completely mystifying........However,if he suddenly transforms into a veritable Titan in our back
four rather than a defender who displays a worrying indecisiveness and has a particular propensity for exacting rash tackles ,then I will almost certainly retract my
earlier reservations .

RED BEERGOGGLES » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:02 pm wrote:I just cant pick out this cultured and decisive player other fans see when it comes to Sakho ,and exactly how fans see him as evolving into an integral component
and someone to build our defence around, I'm afraid I just find completely mystifying........However,if he suddenly transforms into a veritable Titan in our back
four rather than a defender who displays a worrying indecisiveness and has a particular propensity for exacting rash tackles ,then I will almost certainly retract my
earlier reservations .

Yet you advocate playing a player who doesn't show any ability what so ever in terms of team work, positional sense or concentration?

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am wrote:
Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, DISTRIBUTION or tackling.

                                                                       

Next you'll be telling us that Suarez is faster than Michael Owen was!

Damjan - I think the midfield is more of a problem when we rely on Lucas. I like the lad but I feel that we have gone past his level. Gerrard and Henderson work very well so I'd struggle to change that. Coutinho and Sterling both offer a great deal defensively. How would you change it and who would be your preferred choices?

Stu the Red » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:32 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am wrote:
Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, DISTRIBUTION or tackling.

                                                                       

Next you'll be telling us that Suarez is faster than Michael Owen was!

You took the bait. Novice.

If you look at the Opta stats (foreign to you I know) for the games that Sakho and Skrtel play together, you see this -

15 games

Skrtel
Pass Accuracy Average: 91.4%
Distribution variation: 9.4%

Sakho
Pass Accuracy Average: 91.8%
Distribution variation: 6.1%

Accuracy wise they are pretty much identical. However Skrtel plays a higher variation of passes. Sakho distributes the ball well and does the job required of him. Sakho tends to pass short and typically to a full back or Gerrard.

I prefer Skrtel, more chance of his distribution efforts positively affecting the game.

SouthCoastShankly » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:28 am wrote:

Stu the Red » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:32 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:49 am wrote:
Sakho - Good squad player and potentially a first team regular. However not a good as Skrtel: aerially, DISTRIBUTION or tackling.

                                                                       

Next you'll be telling us that Suarez is faster than Michael Owen was!

You took the bait. Novice.

If you look at the Opta stats (foreign to you I know) for the games that Sakho and Skrtel play together, you see this -

15 games

Skrtel
Pass Accuracy Average: 91.4%
Distribution variation: 9.4%

Sakho
Pass Accuracy Average: 91.8%
Distribution variation: 6.1%

Accuracy wise they are pretty much identical. However Skrtel plays a higher variation of passes. Sakho distributes the ball well and does the job required of him. Sakho tends to pass short and typically to a full back or Gerrard.

I prefer Skrtel, more chance of his distribution efforts positively affecting the game.

That tells you absolutely nothing about the pass that is made, if Skrtel passes to a goal keeper and Sahko doesn't, that makes his variation greater, its also a far easier pass to play. Also if Sahko keeps playing a through ball and thats his only variation, yet Skrtel plays it full backs, midfielders, strikers, left right and backwards... that would also means he has a greater variation...If Skrtel stays in a narrow position and passes a full back in a wide area who's in space that makes his pass an easier ball to play. If Sahko plays a defence splitting through ball or a ball through a midfield into a player on the half turn that "stat" doesn't account for that, that stat doesn't take into account the wrong pass or the right pass or whether a player is playing a ball to someone who is under pressure... or even if they're under pressure when they play a pass... quite frankly... its just another pathetic meaningless argument with absolutely no foundation what so ever other than a couple of stupid numbers that proves its easier to have a higher pass completion when you play centre back to any other position on the pitch.

You've just proven by posting that... you have absolutely no understanding of the game what so ever!

And by the way... opta stats aren't foreign to me in the slightest. I understand them better than most, I also understand the massive flaws they have when used in the way you try to use them.

Football isn't a numbers game like Golf or Baseball. Its a variable sport with millions upon millions of different outcomes and consequences for each individual decision, touch, movement etc etc.

Stu the Red » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:58 am wrote:And by the way... opta stats aren't foreign to me in the slightest. I understand them better than most, I also understand the massive flaws they have when used in the way you try to use them.

Football isn't a numbers game like Golf or Baseball. Its a variable sport with millions upon millions of different outcomes and consequences for each individual decision, touch, movement etc etc.

So if stats don't tell the full story, how do we come to a decision on who has better distribution?

The only other option is opinion, which by it's very definition is biased.

So all we can do is agree to disagree. With me safe in the knowledge that ever time I read an article that backs my opinion or watch a game where by Skrtel is immense once again I won.

No biggie for me Stu.

So much of what you have claimed this season has been refuted. From our own chances of CL football to the players you wrote off this season that proved you wrong and us right. Your track record is a joke. And yet still you whine on.

f*ck me, its so painful its funny at times.

I actually agree with stu, no way does Skrtel pass the ball into midfield as well as Sakho.
Skrtel may pass it to someone in midfield in acres of space but Sakho has the ability to thread passes through quite heavy traffic.

i'm not convinced by this idea that sakho is much better at passing into midfield than skrtel is, and i actually think that this is an area of skrtel's game that is often overlooked. if you remember, he actually began his career as a forward, and you can see that when he has the ball at his feet in advanced positions he actually has pretty decent footwork. this confidence on the ball carries over into his general game if you ask me (which you didn't).

i was trying to find some more detailed analysis of his passing but the best i could find in the few moments i have is this diagram from the cardiff game. make of it what you will, but it at least proves that in this game his passing was pretty varied and for the most part forwards. (even the sideways ones are slightly forwards so i'm counting those as well    )




its from this article by the way - which gives a pretty good analysis of his game. its objective, of course, and we can all pick holes in opinion but there's some good stats and points in there.

http://www.squawka.com/news/2014/03/24/skrtel-vs-cardiff/2014032486298

Yeah but those diagrams never show where the opposition players were standing when he made those passes.
Sakho's ability to play balls through traffic into the feet of our midfielders/forwards is on a different level to Skrtel imo