Liverpool FC Forum

by **johnbarnes** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:47 pm

devaney » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 pm wrote:About £190m net spend since 2010. Less than £30m a year.

And if this is the case - it is quite clear to see why we can not compete consistently over a period of time.
FSG want Klopp to turn water into wine.
Only one man could do this... and I'm sure he's a red, but may be too busy to come and do a job for us.

by **bunglemark2** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:19 pm

johnbarnes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:47 pm wrote:
devaney » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:27 pm wrote:About £190m net spend since 2010. Less than £30m a year.

And if this is the case - it is quite clear to see why we can not compete consistently over a period of time.
FSG want Klopp to turn water into wine.
Only one man could do this... and I'm sure he's a red, but may be too busy to come and do a job for us.

I don't think it's a biblical water into wine analogy you should be making, mate.
It's more a Homer Simpson-esque do-the-same-thing-week-after-week-and-expect-a-different-outcome scenario we have here. Picking Lovren, Mignolet and others every week and expecting them NOT to phuck up is just delusional.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:17 am

johnbarnes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:43 pm wrote:

That is just non-sense...when the owners are willing to sanction a 60 million CB and yet you don't bring in any new CB's because that 60 million CB transfer fell through, then that is the fault of peopl in charge of procuring players, the scouts, the manager and the executives. Not the fault of owners.

But yourself and others are not contemplating the possibility that FSG are, have and will continue to play a smarter game. They play Chess while the rest of us play Checkers...
E.G. DO YOU really think that a professional manager being paid 7M per year can not see the frailties of his team? This would be bizarre and extremely naive.[/quote]

If what you say is true, even though it sounds too much like the government hiding the alien bodies and operating on them to me, then Klopp is complicit. Didn't he come out with that there aren't 5 defenders out there better than what we have non-sense?

by **woof woof !** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:25 am

maguskwt » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:17 am wrote:
Didn't he come out with that there aren't 5 defenders out there better than what we have non-sense?

Wasn't he referring to defenders he thought were actually available ?

by **devaney** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:16 am

As much as I hate the thought of simply going out and buying success it has been categorically proven that it is the only way forward unless you are simply satisfied to be an also ran. During the the last 4 transfer windows over the last 2 seasons City spent £280m net - United spent £240m net - Everton ffs spent £85m net AND JUST EXACTLY WHAT DID WE SPEND? YES A PALTRY £33M !! Quite frankly this is nothing short of pathetic and clearly demonstrates why we are currently in the mess that we are. Suggesting that things aren't that bad and that we are only a few points off 4th place is absolute bollux. Just look at how many points we are behind City and just look at their goal difference compared to ours !! We have had a very average midfield and a pathetic defence since Klopp arrived. He is paid £7.5m a year to sort out this nonsense and so far he has failed. Salah and Mané have been decent additions. As for the rest they are either poor or average at best.

by **red till i die!!** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:33 am

devaney wrote:As much as I hate the thought of simply going out and buying success it has been categorically proven that it is the only way forward unless you are simply satisfied to be an also ran. During the the last 4 transfer windows over the last 2 seasons City spent £280m net - United spent £240m net - Everton ffs spent £85m net AND JUST EXACTLY WHAT DID WE SPEND? YES A PALTRY £33M !! Quite frankly this is nothing short of pathetic and clearly demonstrates why we are currently in the mess that we are. Suggesting that things aren't that bad and that we are only a few points off 4th place is absolute bollux. Just look at how many points we are behind City and just look at their goal difference compared to ours !! We have had a very average midfield and a pathetic defence since Klopp arrived. He is paid £7.5m a year to sort out this nonsense and so far he has failed. Salah and Mané have been decent additions. As for the rest they are either poor or average at best.

Jaysus Dev where have you been ? Are you not aware that we broke our transfer record twice this summer and came very close to blowing that out of the water with a bumper fictitious bid for VVD :nod

All that in one summer and you have the audacity to complain :laugh:

Shame on you you bad bad fan :laugh:

Seriously though this is the same shyte that has gone on longer than Klopp's tenure. There is little or no change since Rodgers in terms of personnel tactics or results and the reason for it is persisting with the same players that got him the boot. Mingolet, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson should never have been brought here in the first place. There is a host of others like Can, Sturridge, Lallana, Origi who aren't living up to it either.
Klopp is getting paid handsomely but imo is here to steer the club in the direction he is told. He has to see the problems that exist but hasn't got the power to fix it. We have come full circle again with these owners as in that we achieved 4th and got CL but still went into the season with major weaknesses and doubts just like they did when Rodgers qualified. This is the 2nd time they have done this so you have to ask why we are not looking to capitalise on previous finishes and its clear that they don't want to.

This is from Peter Moore when he was 1st appointed back in June and in one of his maiden interviews is already dumbing the club down with FSG spiel. This is what he had to say.

“What we have to do is provide the team down there on that pitch when it’s finished with every resource they need to be successful, that is the challenge of modern football.” Moore continues. “We see clubs that just can’t keep up with it. It’s always sad for me to see clubs that I grew up with as a boy that were powerhouses and have fallen off the pace. I’ve seen this in the world of Silicon Valley, once you drop off the pace catching back up again and being relevant, attracting talent, it becomes very, very difficult.”

We are well off the pace for a long time now and still cannot attract talent.

“Look, I have been involved in a company that on public record has acquired other companies for $1b and it hasn’t quite worked out,” he explains. “I have lived through what is known as M and A activity – Mergers and Acquisitions – and what I have learned over the years is that it is not how much you pay but what you get. And so you have a kid called Philippe Coutinho playing out there who cost £8m and then you have other guys who cost four or five times that around the league.”

But yet signing Ox made perfect sense in that he cannot even get a start. Your right it is all about what you get for your money and that's the problem. We just spent a ridiculous sum on fooking nothing.

“Maybe I’m naive but I’m not looking at my competitors' spending and deciding that I need to spend the same regardless of the quality of the players. That makes no business sense to me,” he adds. “I trust Michael Edwards implicitly to do a value proposition of a particular player and say, based on the data analytics we have on them and the comparables we have on other players, that this is what we go for."

Here we go. Michael Edwards looks at the players, Puts a value on them based on their stats and then compares them to similar stats collected on other players. :laugh:

This is the same shyte we have always been at and it continues.

“I’m yet to see the process of how it works," Moores admits. "But I hear nothing but good things the way we do it and in particular about Michael - and his process of this. The theory that because Man City spends £100m we need to spend £100m? Listen, we may spend £100m. Who knows? But it won’t be because they spend £100m. If your next-door neighbour puts £50,000 into his greenhouse and for you to keep up with comparable rates on your street, will you spend fifty-thousand quid on a greenhouse? No! You do what makes good sense for your house. I can’t think of a better analogy than the greenhouse!”

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 66336.html

Despite not seeing how the process even works he is fully behind it because he hears nothing but good things on the way we do it. :laugh:

Nothing has changed here and this guy wont do it either because whoever employed him is perfectly happy at our recruitment system and it doesn't look like it will change so our fortunes won't either. Because of all this Klopp is on a hiding to nothing and its only a matter of time before he walks on us. A 5th or 6th place this season should do it with him citing he is unable to take us any further and then we will be right back in the shyte of it again.

by **johnbarnes** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:26 am

red till i die!! » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:33 am wrote:
devaney wrote:As much as I hate the thought of simply going out and buying success it has been categorically proven that it is the only way forward unless you are simply satisfied to be an also ran. During the the last 4 transfer windows over the last 2 seasons City spent £280m net - United spent £240m net - Everton ffs spent £85m net AND JUST EXACTLY WHAT DID WE SPEND? YES A PALTRY £33M !! Quite frankly this is nothing short of pathetic and clearly demonstrates why we are currently in the mess that we are. Suggesting that things aren't that bad and that we are only a few points off 4th place is absolute bollux. Just look at how many points we are behind City and just look at their goal difference compared to ours !! We have had a very average midfield and a pathetic defence since Klopp arrived. He is paid £7.5m a year to sort out this nonsense and so far he has failed. Salah and Mané have been decent additions. As for the rest they are either poor or average at best.

Jaysus Dev where have you been ? Are you not aware that we broke our transfer record twice this summer and came very close to blowing that out of the water with a bumper fictitious bid for VVD All that in one summer and you have the audacity to complain Shame on you you bad bad fan

Seriously though this is the same shyte that has gone on longer than Klopp's tenure. There is little or no change since Rodgers in terms of personnel tactics or results and the reason for it is persisting with the same players that got him the boot. Mingolet, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson should never have been brought here in the first place. There is a host of others like Can, Sturridge, Lallana, Origi who aren't living up to it either.
Klopp is getting paid handsomely but imo is here to steer the club in the direction he is told. He has to see the problems that exist but hasn't got the power to fix it. We have come full circle again with these owners as in that we achieved 4th and got CL but still went into the season with major weaknesses and doubts just like they did when Rodgers qualified. This is the 2nd time they have done this so you have to ask why we are not looking to capitalise on previous finishes and its clear that they don't want to.

This is from Peter Moore when he was 1st appointed back in June and in one of his maiden interviews is already dumbing the club down with FSG spiel. This is what he had to say.

“What we have to do is provide the team down there on that pitch when it’s finished with every resource they need to be successful, that is the challenge of modern football.” Moore continues. “We see clubs that just can’t keep up with it. It’s always sad for me to see clubs that I grew up with as a boy that were powerhouses and have fallen off the pace. I’ve seen this in the world of Silicon Valley, once you drop off the pace catching back up again and being relevant, attracting talent, it becomes very, very difficult.”

We are well off the pace for a long time now and still cannot attract talent.

“Look, I have been involved in a company that on public record has acquired other companies for $1b and it hasn’t quite worked out,” he explains. “I have lived through what is known as M and A activity – Mergers and Acquisitions – and what I have learned over the years is that it is not how much you pay but what you get. And so you have a kid called Philippe Coutinho playing out there who cost £8m and then you have other guys who cost four or five times that around the league.”

But yet signing Ox made perfect sense in that he cannot even get a start. Your right it is all about what you get for your money and that's the problem. We just spent a ridiculous sum on fooking nothing.

“Maybe I’m naive but I’m not looking at my competitors' spending and deciding that I need to spend the same regardless of the quality of the players. That makes no business sense to me,” he adds. “I trust Michael Edwards implicitly to do a value proposition of a particular player and say, based on the data analytics we have on them and the comparables we have on other players, that this is what we go for."

Here we go. Michael Edwards looks at the players, Puts a value on them based on their stats and then compares them to similar stats collected on other players. This is the same shyte we have always been at and it continues.

“I’m yet to see the process of how it works," Moores admits. "But I hear nothing but good things the way we do it and in particular about Michael - and his process of this. The theory that because Man City spends £100m we need to spend £100m? Listen, we may spend £100m. Who knows? But it won’t be because they spend £100m. If your next-door neighbour puts £50,000 into his greenhouse and for you to keep up with comparable rates on your street, will you spend fifty-thousand quid on a greenhouse? No! You do what makes good sense for your house. I can’t think of a better analogy than the greenhouse!”

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 66336.html

Despite not seeing how the process even works he is fully behind it because he hears nothing but good things on the way we do it. Nothing has changed here and this guy wont do it either because whoever employed him is perfectly happy at our recruitment system and it doesn't look like it will change so our fortunes won't either. Because of all this Klopp is on a hiding to nothing and its only a matter of time before he walks on us. A 5th or 6th place this season should do it with him citing he is unable to take us any further and then we will be right back in the shyte of it again.

That's one of the best written and put together posts I have read on this forum to date. :bowdown

Shankly built the house. Paisley landscaped the garden. Joe designed the interior. The King laid the flower beds and Rafa kept the garden pruned!
---
FSG go to B&Q and spend £29.99 on a DIY Greenhouse :down:

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:07 pm

Our fans need to be realistic, we are not a petro-dollar club like City, Chelsea or PSG, nor have we spent the last 20 years qualifying for the CL year in year out like United and Arsenal did from the mid 90's onwards when they raked in a fortune.
We are not even a London club who can charge ridiculous ticket prices and have multinational companies falling over themselves to buy corporate boxes at our stadium.

by **johnbarnes** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:40 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:07 pm wrote:Our fans need to be realistic, we are not a petro-dollar club like City, Chelsea or PSG, nor have we spent the last 20 years qualifying for the CL year in year out like United and Arsenal did from the mid 90's onwards when they raked in a fortune.
We are not even a London club who can charge ridiculous ticket prices and have multinational companies falling over themselves to buy corporate boxes at our stadium.

You are 100% right...
But we are a club that went out bought Mario Balotelli as a direct replacement for LS...
We are a club that has made Henderson our captain because he probably makes the best option to cope with all commercial aspects of what the captaincy brings. Not a decision based on his influence on the pitch.
---
I just think it's about time that we group and stick together and acknowledge that poor decisions have been made and the mistakes that hindsight should seek to alter, what actually now happens going forward.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:05 pm

johnbarnes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:40 am wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:07 pm wrote:Our fans need to be realistic, we are not a petro-dollar club like City, Chelsea or PSG, nor have we spent the last 20 years qualifying for the CL year in year out like United and Arsenal did from the mid 90's onwards when they raked in a fortune.
We are not even a London club who can charge ridiculous ticket prices and have multinational companies falling over themselves to buy corporate boxes at our stadium.

You are 100% right...
But we are a club that went out bought Mario Balotelli as a direct replacement for LS...
We are a club that has made Henderson our captain because he probably makes the best option to cope with all commercial aspects of what the captaincy brings. Not a decision based on his influence on the pitch.
---
I just think it's about time that we group and stick together and acknowledge that poor decisions have been made and the mistakes that hindsight should seek to alter, actually now happen.

But we didn't buy Mario as a direct replacement for Luis Suarez, if anything we bought Mario as an afterthought late on in the window, Brendan even said in an interview 2 weeks before we signed him that he didn't want him.
Our big purchases that window were Lallana, Markovic and Lovren, with the likes of Can, Origi and Moreno etc also coming in.
Because we still had the likes of Sturridge (when he could run), Coutinho and Sterling and we were adding Markovic and Lallana the general consensus at the time was that we still had an exciting front line, we also bought Ricky Lambert that year as well as a target man in case teams decided to sit deep on us.
The plan was by buying Lovren (who was meant to be a vocal organiser) and Moreno we would significantly strengthen our defence, so whilst our attack would obviously lose something with Luis going overall we would become a much stronger and much more well balanced side.
Plus the reason why Hendo is captain is because he is a level headed lad who speaks well in interviews and is a model pro, he is the type of lad that you will only read about on the back pages of newspapers not on the front pages.

by **johnbarnes** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:15 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:05 pm wrote:
johnbarnes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:40 am wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:07 pm wrote:Our fans need to be realistic, we are not a petro-dollar club like City, Chelsea or PSG, nor have we spent the last 20 years qualifying for the CL year in year out like United and Arsenal did from the mid 90's onwards when they raked in a fortune.
We are not even a London club who can charge ridiculous ticket prices and have multinational companies falling over themselves to buy corporate boxes at our stadium.

You are 100% right...
But we are a club that went out bought Mario Balotelli as a direct replacement for LS...
We are a club that has made Henderson our captain because he probably makes the best option to cope with all commercial aspects of what the captaincy brings. Not a decision based on his influence on the pitch.
---
I just think it's about time that we group and stick together and acknowledge that poor decisions have been made and the mistakes that hindsight should seek to alter, actually now happen.

But we didn't buy Mario as a direct replacement for Luis Suarez, if anything we bought Mario as an afterthought late on in the window, Brendan even said in an interview 2 weeks before we signed him that he didn't want him. So we agree that it was a mistake...

Our big purchases that window were Lallana, Markovic and Lovren, with the likes of Can, Origi and Moreno etc also coming in.
So away from Lallana - You agree that the other signings have been poor to say the least?

Because we still had the likes of Sturridge (when he could run), Coutinho and Sterling and we were adding Markovic and Lallana the general consensus at the time was that we still had an exciting front line, we also bought Ricky Lambert that year as well as a target man in case teams decided to sit deep on us.
The plan was by buying Lovren (who was meant to be a vocal organiser) and Moreno we would significantly strengthen our defence, so whilst our attack would obviously lose something with Luis going overall we would become a much stronger and much more well balanced side.

Plus the reason why Hendo is captain is because he is a level headed lad who speaks welll in interviews and is a model pro, he is the type of lad that you will only read about on the back pages of newspapers not on the front pages.

So again you agree he is not good enough to captain LFC?

---
As I wrote before. Time for us to stop trying to punch lumps into one another in an online attempt to always be correct.
We MUST stop what is happening too the club.
LFC are no more successful than Birmingham City in terms of silverware since the end of Rafa's reign.
---
A wise man once said. Can't we all just get along?
It will make us and the club stronger going forward.

by **red till i die!!** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:20 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:Our fans need to be realistic, we are not a petro-dollar club like City, Chelsea or PSG, nor have we spent the last 20 years qualifying for the CL year in year out like United and Arsenal did from the mid 90's onwards when they raked in a fortune.
We are not even a London club who can charge ridiculous ticket prices and have multinational companies falling over themselves to buy corporate boxes at our stadium.

No one thinks we are a petro dollar club Yakka and that's a lame excuse in defence of the owners. What we are is foolish chasing an idiotic plan to revolutionise the game. If anyone thinks they are a petro dollar club it was because they were led to believe we were with stuff like we have the money to match anyone but we wont spend it just because the others do.

FYI we qualified for the CL 7 times from 2001 to 2010. 01-02, 02-03, 04-05, 05-06, 06-07, 07-08, 08-09 and 09-10. Don't forget that we had the worst owners in our history during those last few years. Now since these great owners came in we have managed to qualify twice in 7 years. That is pathetic and evidence of a massive slide under their ownership.

London club :laugh:

Did they not already try and hike ticket prices ? and how long do you think it will be before they revisit that idea. We have corporate boxes and they are apparently among the biggest and luxurious in the league. They charge a pretty penny for those as well.

Each of the Executive Suites at Liverpool Football Club are designed with a luxurious and spacious interior that is complemented by first-class amenities and an excellent Events service offering from a team with extensive experience in delivering world class events.

The spaces are bigger than any other corporate suite format in top-flight English football, yet still offer an intimate space to make them the ideal venue for your business meeting or small gathering.

Each is fitted out and furnished using high-quality materials and bespoke finishes - attention to detail is paramount. With a glazed façade that looks out over the pitch each Executive Suite offers stunning views and a unique venue to host a business meeting or small formal dinner.

http://events.liverpoolfc.com/lounges/m ... tive-boxes

Since they have come in this club has generated more money than it ever has and they deserve credit for that but not what they do with it. The other week benitez said he was working on about 18mil net when he was here and through all the extra revenues we have now that figure has increased feck all. Certainly nowhere near in line with the revenues of the overall club. As much as we will never catch the other clubs we are also vulnerable to any club below us that can attract owners willing to spend.
The only difference between FSG and T&T is PR :nod

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:50 pm

Some of our fans constantly bring up what the likes of City have spent as if to say we should be spending more.
And yes we had a spell (mainly under Rafa) of regularly qualifying for the CL but it was a lot easier to finish in the top 4 back then, there was no Man City for a start. We still only earned a fraction of what United and Arsenal did, mind you their title wins helped.
And as for the corporate thing there is no way you can possibly compare us to a London club, yes we have corporate boxes but who fills them? In the 70's and 80's this city went through a dramatic de-industrialisation, factories like Tate and Lyle, Bryant and May, British American Tobacco, Vernon's, Littlewoods, Barker and Dobson, English Electric, Plesseys, Marconi, Hartley's Jam, Triumph, Meccano, BICC and about 100 others all left, dozens of big shipping lines used to have their headquarters in the city as well until all that flags of convenience malarkey came in, they all bailed out too.
These days the 2 biggest businesses in the North of the city are actually the 2 clubs themselves, London clubs can attract people who own multinational companies and merchant banks, we attract people like local solicitors or fella's who own little building firms.

by **devaney** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:53 pm

Yakka let's keep it real. Nobody is suggesting that we should be spending more than City. If you are happy that we have spent £33m during the same period that City spent £280m then I admire your positivity. Unfortunately though the reality is that we will get absolutely nowhere spending less than an eighth of what City have spent. And let's face it they had a far superior squad before they spent £280m. Have we really fallen that far behind. At this rate Yakka I'll be joining the whinge committee.

by **Doeboy** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:36 pm

City, Chelsea and Man Utd operate on a different financial level and it's fair to say we can't match them. However, after those 3, it really is ourselves and Arsenal in terms o f financial might. Was watching the game on sunday and afterwards got me thinking about spurs.They don't spend massively yet still seem to be there or thereabouts in the league. Pochettino has been at spurs just over a year longer than Jurgen has been at us... so not a massive difference. Our rate of progress has been nowhere as good as them. This is the same team we battered 5-0 and 4-0 in the season before Pochettino went there so he obviously had a rebuilding job on his hands to and didnt exactly walk into a job where it was ready made for him.

This time last year, our progress under Klopp was amazing and I was thinking wow, this guy is something seriously special. Blitzing everything in front of us and on fire. However since the turn of the year, our form hasn't been anything to shout about. Thought we'd pick up this season but seeing more of the same thing and that always really worries me.

Klopp needs and deserves time however it's just so frustrating when during that time we see the same mistakes being repeated over and over again on the pitch and you wonder if we are actually making any real strides forward.

We have a small run of games now where we can go on bit of a run and I really hope we do because this season has started poorly and things do need to change quick because restlessness is starting to creep in amongst the fans and my worry is that one or more adverse results could see it really snowball.

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