Liverpool FC Forum

I am a huge fan of the internet....I love it and can't really imagine a world without it cos so many cool things come from it, but this whole penalty discussion both here and elsewhere is a great example of one of the really irritating facets which is everyone turns in an expert on things they know absolutely nothing about and every piece of minutiae is analysed to death. The only facts are that he took the penalty, he scored and we won because of it. We should be hailing him as a hero and nothing else. Move on to the next game and let's hope we win again. It's like we're always looking for something to complain about just to have something to talk about here sometimes

Other facts:

The media reported only a piece of what Stevie said and in the full context his comments weren't anything earth shattering. He had a point, as I suppose some people do on here, but let's be honest it was hardly even a scuffle. Did it reflect in any way badly on the team/club/player.....not in my opinion.

Partial facts/partial opinion:

Stevie is exiting the club and now the decision has been made, the remainder of his tenure is and will remain uncomfortable and awkward. His influence and opinion is less significant than it was last season as it is only valid for another 4 months approx. Couple that with the fact that he has been injured twice since he stated his health/condition was not an issue around the time of the announcement and the team is performing without him, sometimes it's a bit of a moot point. The team is obviously transitioning and moving on and some of the players that were perhaps hiding in his shadow are now coming to the fore. I appreciate that he gave his personal opinion rather than dodge the question altogether, but the fact is that he wasn't there on the pitch and I think that Henderson did a great job of avoiding a bigger scene for someone so relatively inexperienced

There's talk about lack of leadership without Stevie in the squad, but what do we expect when there has been such dominance for so long? As above, that is currently in transition for me and we will not see anyone fully grow into that role until it has been vacated. I wanted him to stay, but once the decision is made, the longer he hangs around the more detrimental he'll be to that situation.

The people on here criticising BR for me are beyond belief. From the beginning of the season until October/November, he was accused of not knowing his strongest team and not knowing his strongest formation and incapable of dealing with the leaky defence. A number of his signings were ridiculed and the way everyone was hitting both him and Mignolet was something to behold. His one statement was that a lot of people were bedding in and in many ways we were back to where we were 2 years ago when it took until Jan/Feb for things to click. Low and behold, the strongest team seems to be known, the formation seems to be known, the style of play seems to be known, we're winning whilst keeping clean sheets and a lot of those signings are starting to show promise, heck, even Mario seems to be digging in and trying to contribute....yet some still find ways to use words like ineptitude on here. This for someone who is overseeing league winning form from the beginning of the year onwards.

I don't know what the future holds any more than anyone else on here, but can we please try to focus a little more on the positives and just get behind the squad and the manager and act like proper fans worthy of the tradition and reputation that we are so well known for? Claiming the manager is inept is as good as an automatic discredit in my eyes. The team is transforming as he has predicted and he's managing to do it in some of the most difficult circumstances an LFC manager possibly ever had to face....Jamie leaving, Suarez and everything to do with that and now Stevie leaving. We may not be back to old ways as we'd like to see it, but the ship is being righted again and if we're objective for a moment, the Stevie story is being weathered particularly well. Mocked for only bringing back Ibe in January, but that looks to be a master stroke and the gap that Stevie is leaving seems to be filling in. Could it be that by the end of the season it's not as devastating as we all thought it would be? I'd rate the chances as very high at this moment and things look promising. Personally I think that BR has been playing a blinder for a couple of seasons on the personnel front and if he does realise what is currently being promised by the way the team is developing, it should be as a master stroke and himself a miracle worker.

Just get behind the club and manager from now till the end of the season and make this board more pleasant to read again.

Homebooby » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:39 pm wrote:I am a huge fan of the internet....I love it and can't really imagine a world without it cos so many cool things come from it, but this whole penalty discussion both here and elsewhere is a great example of one of the really irritating facets which is everyone turns in an expert on things they know absolutely nothing about and every piece of minutiae is analysed to death. The only facts are that he took the penalty, he scored and we won because of it. We should be hailing him as a hero and nothing else. Move on to the next game and let's hope we win again. It's like we're always looking for something to complain about just to have something to talk about here sometimes

Other facts:

The media reported only a piece of what Stevie said and in the full context his comments weren't anything earth shattering. He had a point, as I suppose some people do on here, but let's be honest it was hardly even a scuffle. Did it reflect in any way badly on the team/club/player.....not in my opinion.

Partial facts/partial opinion:

Stevie is exiting the club and now the decision has been made, the remainder of his tenure is and will remain uncomfortable and awkward. His influence and opinion is less significant than it was last season as it is only valid for another 4 months approx. Couple that with the fact that he has been injured twice since he stated his health/condition was not an issue around the time of the announcement and the team is performing without him, sometimes it's a bit of a moot point. The team is obviously transitioning and moving on and some of the players that were perhaps hiding in his shadow are now coming to the fore. I appreciate that he gave his personal opinion rather than dodge the question altogether, but the fact is that he wasn't there on the pitch and I think that Henderson did a great job of avoiding a bigger scene for someone so relatively inexperienced

There's talk about lack of leadership without Stevie in the squad, but what do we expect when there has been such dominance for so long? As above, that is currently in transition for me and we will not see anyone fully grow into that role until it has been vacated. I wanted him to stay, but once the decision is made, the longer he hangs around the more detrimental he'll be to that situation.

The people on here criticising BR for me are beyond belief. From the beginning of the season until October/November, he was accused of not knowing his strongest team and not knowing his strongest formation and incapable of dealing with the leaky defence. A number of his signings were ridiculed and the way everyone was hitting both him and Mignolet was something to behold. His one statement was that a lot of people were bedding in and in many ways we were back to where we were 2 years ago when it took until Jan/Feb for things to click. Low and behold, the strongest team seems to be known, the formation seems to be known, the style of play seems to be known, we're winning whilst keeping clean sheets and a lot of those signings are starting to show promise, heck, even Mario seems to be digging in and trying to contribute....yet some still find ways to use words like ineptitude on here. This for someone who is overseeing league winning form from the beginning of the year onwards.

I don't know what the future holds any more than anyone else on here, but can we please try to focus a little more on the positives and just get behind the squad and the manager and act like proper fans worthy of the tradition and reputation that we are so well known for? Claiming the manager is inept is as good as an automatic discredit in my eyes. The team is transforming as he has predicted and he's managing to do it in some of the most difficult circumstances an LFC manager possibly ever had to face....Jamie leaving, Suarez and everything to do with that and now Stevie leaving. We may not be back to old ways as we'd like to see it, but the ship is being righted again and if we're objective for a moment, the Stevie story is being weathered particularly well. Mocked for only bringing back Ibe in January, but that looks to be a master stroke and the gap that Stevie is leaving seems to be filling in. Could it be that by the end of the season it's not as devastating as we all thought it would be? I'd rate the chances as very high at this moment and things look promising. Personally I think that BR has been playing a blinder for a couple of seasons on the personnel front and if he does realise what is currently being promised by the way the team is developing, it should be as a master stroke and himself a miracle worker.

Just get behind the club and manager from now till the end of the season and make this board more pleasant to read again.

That piece would have been a lot more compelling if you had made the following clichés inclusive :

'The world would be a much better place if we could all just get along'
'Better the devil you know'
'The grass is not always greener'

As one of the most prominent and ardent Rodgers apologists on these boards  I find it disappointing you just missed out on overkill 

If I believed those 3 were true, then I would stand behind them. I just see no value in commenting on the 'what might have beens' and 'what could be if's' which seems to be increasingly prevalent. This is the squad we have, this is the manager we have and we're not doing too badly at the moment basically sums it up. I don't buy the arguments that we're operating at mid-table club level, but we're kidding ourselves if we think we can compete with the Chelseas, Citys and Utd's for talent at the moment as we're not the club we once were. Take Sterling and Ibe as examples. They weren't born the last time we won the league. They only really know a world where Chelsea and Utd win stuff, much like me as a youngster growing up in the 80's. Things got messed up really badly over the last 20 years to the point where we almost went bankrupt and we were prostituted on the back pages every single day. My view of the world tries to keep that all in mind and look at where we're going. For the first time since Kenny left, I'm seeing a 5 year plan that shows some semblance of promise of us returning to longer term sustainable success playing football in a style that's in keeping with the way I remember us playing in our heyday.

Just to be clear RBG my post wasn't intended as a direct dig at you or your contributions to the board....who am I to single people out (and I am amazed you even remember anything I've ever written )    ...that I mean sincerely.

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm wrote:I think that game against Besiktas underlined my reservations with Rodgers tactical acumen ,he seems to possess no proclivity whatsoever to deviate from his current
mindset .Besiktas if we're honest are a decent well drilled team with a manager who knows how to accentuate the strength in his core group of players....but that's it !
If truth be known they're nothing special ,and with the players at the managers disposal he had more than enough options to have switched things up ,if only to confound
Bilic's tactics ,which has to be said were underlined by Rodgers with his refusal to be less predictable.   



In the first half we were tormented by Tore, and Sakho had his work cut out ,to all inside Anfield he was arguably their most potent threat ,we also seen that Ibe although
carrying a real attacking threat was naive in his defending and this often left Can exposed ,we seen how rigid our midfield was with no player pushing up to provide
protection for our main course of invention 'Coutinho' who was marked out of the game ...Bilic was more than happy to let us have the lions share of possession ,whilst retaining a firm line in defence ,they also constructed the best attacks and arguably had enough chances to return to Turkey with a few goals.

Balotelli was introduced and we looked much more threatening and more inventive ,and yet this seems to completely escape the manager  European football is a different animal than the kick and rush of the Premier League ,it requires intelligence and the tactical nous to outmanoeuvre your opponent. It may make for depressing reading ,but Liverpool are so predictable in Europe ,and managers can devise their counter tactics a month before the game.

That game on Thursday typified  the reason we're out of the Champion's League and it evoked some deeply unpleasant memories of our game against Basel ,a real lack
of game intelligence and once again overlooking the best players to complete the job . I mean what's so difficult ,the games at Anfield and you have two brilliant strikers
to spearhead your attack and you leave one (who has started to play with a real flourish of late ) on the bench ....it completely baffles me 

Whilst I agree that BR has still much to learn in Europe, what baffles me is anyone blaming the manager for not relyinng on Balotelli, when during the first half of the season the manager stuck with Balotelli and time and again the player has let his manager down. And the current resurgence wasn't based on Balotelli.

Homebooby » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:17 pm wrote::D


If I believed those 3 were true, then I would stand behind them. I just see no value in commenting on the 'what might have beens' and 'what could be if's' which seems to be increasingly prevalent. This is the squad we have, this is the manager we have and we're not doing too badly at the moment basically sums it up. I don't buy the arguments that we're operating at mid-table club level, but we're kidding ourselves if we think we can compete with the Chelseas, Citys and Utd's for talent at the moment as we're not the club we once were. Take Sterling and Ibe as examples. They weren't born the last time we won the league. They only really know a world where Chelsea and Utd win stuff, much like me as a youngster growing up in the 80's. Things got messed up really badly over the last 20 years to the point where we almost went bankrupt and we were prostituted on the back pages every single day. My view of the world tries to keep that all in mind and look at where we're going. For the first time since Kenny left, I'm seeing a 5 year plan that shows some semblance of promise of us returning to longer term sustainable success playing football in a style that's in keeping with the way I remember us playing in our heyday.

Listen ,I concurred with the first part of your composition pertaining to the fuss made about the penalty incident ,but then you just lurched towards the impractical
expecting fans who pay a large proportion of their respective earnings towards supporting and following the team they love ,by suggesting we should overlook the
clearly evident flaws in the managers mindset .

It doesn't gall me to proffer my praise for the manager when warranted ,and it equally doesn't faze me to be openly denigrating when I firmly believe he has let the
club down ,perhaps I was a bit too dismissive of your post ,but you seem to be too intelligent to fall into the trap of believing all supporters should all happily toe the
party line and not air their respective reservations.

As for harking back to our halcyon heydays ,we didn't just pass the ball we out manoeuvred teams with real intelligence and the managers could tinker with their 
stratagems to nullify the threat an opposing team ,rather than being overly reliant on pace and ball retention.

Honestly mate ,I  have yet to see evidence that the current manager is capable of introducing such game changing tactics ,and those beliefs  if I'm honest swept
through the Kop on Thursday night.

maguskwt » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:30 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm wrote:I think that game against Besiktas underlined my reservations with Rodgers tactical acumen ,he seems to possess no proclivity whatsoever to deviate from his current
mindset .Besiktas if we're honest are a decent well drilled team with a manager who knows how to accentuate the strength in his core group of players....but that's it !
If truth be known they're nothing special ,and with the players at the managers disposal he had more than enough options to have switched things up ,if only to confound
Bilic's tactics ,which has to be said were underlined by Rodgers with his refusal to be less predictable.   



In the first half we were tormented by Tore, and Sakho had his work cut out ,to all inside Anfield he was arguably their most potent threat ,we also seen that Ibe although
carrying a real attacking threat was naive in his defending and this often left Can exposed ,we seen how rigid our midfield was with no player pushing up to provide
protection for our main course of invention 'Coutinho' who was marked out of the game ...Bilic was more than happy to let us have the lions share of possession ,whilst retaining a firm line in defence ,they also constructed the best attacks and arguably had enough chances to return to Turkey with a few goals.

Balotelli was introduced and we looked much more threatening and more inventive ,and yet this seems to completely escape the manager  European football is a different animal than the kick and rush of the Premier League ,it requires intelligence and the tactical nous to outmanoeuvre your opponent. It may make for depressing reading ,but Liverpool are so predictable in Europe ,and managers can devise their counter tactics a month before the game.

That game on Thursday typified  the reason we're out of the Champion's League and it evoked some deeply unpleasant memories of our game against Basel ,a real lack
of game intelligence and once again overlooking the best players to complete the job . I mean what's so difficult ,the games at Anfield and you have two brilliant strikers
to spearhead your attack and you leave one (who has started to play with a real flourish of late ) on the bench ....it completely baffles me 

Whilst I agree that BR has still much to learn in Europe, what baffles me is anyone blaming the manager for not relyinng on Balotelli, when during the first half of the season the manager stuck with Balotelli and time and again the player has let his manager down. And the current resurgence wasn't based on Balotelli.

It could be argued though that earlier on in the season Balotelli was carrying the can for our poor performances when it was other area's of the team that were not functioning properly.
Is it any coincidence that once Gerrard was moved out of midfield and Lovren out of the back 4 that our form improved dramatically?

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm wrote:I think that game against Besiktas underlined my reservations with Rodgers tactical acumen ,he seems to possess no proclivity whatsoever to deviate from his current
mindset .Besiktas if we're honest are a decent well drilled team with a manager who knows how to accentuate the strength in his core group of players....but that's it !
If truth be known they're nothing special ,and with the players at the managers disposal he had more than enough options to have switched things up ,if only to confound
Bilic's tactics ,which has to be said were underlined by Rodgers with his refusal to be less predictable.   



In the first half we were tormented by Tore, and Sakho had his work cut out ,to all inside Anfield he was arguably their most potent threat ,we also seen that Ibe although
carrying a real attacking threat was naive in his defending and this often left Can exposed ,we seen how rigid our midfield was with no player pushing up to provide
protection for our main course of invention 'Coutinho' who was marked out of the game ...Bilic was more than happy to let us have the lions share of possession ,whilst retaining a firm line in defence ,they also constructed the best attacks and arguably had enough chances to return to Turkey with a few goals.

Balotelli was introduced and we looked much more threatening and more inventive ,and yet this seems to completely escape the manager  European football is a different animal than the kick and rush of the Premier League ,it requires intelligence and the tactical nous to outmanoeuvre your opponent. It may make for depressing reading ,but Liverpool are so predictable in Europe ,and managers can devise their counter tactics a month before the game.

That game on Thursday typified  the reason we're out of the Champion's League and it evoked some deeply unpleasant memories of our game against Basel ,a real lack
of game intelligence and once again overlooking the best players to complete the job . I mean what's so difficult ,the games at Anfield and you have two brilliant strikers
to spearhead your attack and you leave one (who has started to play with a real flourish of late ) on the bench ....it completely baffles me 

I went back and read this again properly out of courtesy as much as anything  . I obviously wasn't at the stadium, but was watching on TV and my interpretation of the game was nowhere near as insightful as what you've written, could be because I don't 'get/know' football well enough, or more likely it's down to the way my brain has always worked, more big picture than in the details and forgiving of certain weaknesses with an understanding that you can do what you can do with the people you have got and no more. My general feeling was that we mostly dominated the game, had a huge amount of possession, but struggled to do anything with it in the last 3rd a lot of the time, which is not insignificant.

I am not sure whether what you describe is related to tactics, or just the reality of the players we have, playing in the positions we do.

Clearly we're weak at the back and I can't believe that this is something that is a long term plan. Can out of position, no full backs, an ageing Sahko and Skrtel who I struggle to trust. I'm (blindly) hoping for a major overhaul here in the summer as we're still vulnerable to a set piece and don't display the assurance of champions here. Based on these details, I don't get too up in arms about it...it's not where it needs to be and I have to believe that the mgt team knows that too....it's obvious for everyone else to see

Midfield was clearly the place where so much investment has gone these past seasons. My biggest issue with the choices made for midfield is one that would perhaps be viewed as superficial, but I think is significant and touches on your point about Coutinho. I think we miss physical presence in the center and we often get muscled out of things. Coutinho is great example of what I would call a European star, give him space and he can be devastating....sit on him and he goes missing...just doesn't have the presence to not let that be a factor. In search of the speed, nippiness and skill, we've sacrificed muscle I think, mostly cos Stevie was providing that, but that's been on the slide for a while. Will Can moving into midfield bring that....perhaps...but I think we're still low on it.

Which brings me to Mario, I've commented a few times that he's a behemoth when he comes on the pitch...a tank of 'don't f**k with me' physical presence and I think that's what you saw there in the game. It's an impressive thing to behold and he looks like a man amongst boys. So I agree with you that he's a potential game/style changer. I can only explain the ways he's been sparingly used is related to the lack of performance in the first run of games that he had for us. He was so far off the pace for me that we felt like we were playing with 10 men. I'd argue that BR gave him a shot, then altered tactics to get him to want to play. I am not convinced he's successful on that front, but it does look promising and I think it's only fair to judge Mario in a team where he has a proper no-nonsense striker to play off of and he now has that in Sturridge. Potentially they can really cause some trouble.

The other area I really struggle with and I don't understand why it's not commented more on, also on the post game reviews etc and that's the width that we lack/have lacked. I do find myself dumbfounded when BR says week on week that we had good width, when all I see is the winger sprinting from the line towards the penalty spot through a wall of players only to inevitably lose the ball in the pile of legs and feet we come across. When we were lacking any strikers in the team and Sterling was the only one up front, there were so many times a break was on and a ball played into the box only to find there's noone within 10 yards of it. So we stop crossing.....I think this is where Danny and Mario can also make a difference, but we're not doing it enough. Ibe showed the last couple of game what a winger can/should do....hit the byline and cross and hope someone connects. That's the bit of our gameplan that continues to frustrate me more than anything else.

Homebooby » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:21 pm wrote:Just to be clear RBG my post wasn't intended as a direct dig at you or your contributions to the board....who am I to single people out (and I am amazed you even remember anything I've ever written )    ...that I mean sincerely.

You're a very good poster ,and yes I take time to read your posts ,however personally surprising that seems to you. 
Its probably because in the past I have concurred with a large part of what you've written ,like I said you appear to
have the club at heart and firmly and stringently believe in what you post ,and that comes through in your posts.

[quote
It could be argued though that earlier on in the season Balotelli was carrying the can for our poor performances when it was other area's of the team that were not functioning properly.
Is it any coincidence that once Gerrard was moved out of midfield and Lovren out of the back 4 that our form improved dramatically?[/quote]


Totally agree with this in the spirit of balance. I was (perhaps clumsily) trying to say the same thing between the lines. There's more than one facet influencing any situation and lay total responsibility with one person doesn't make sense to me.

In the spirit of what I was trying to say, I'm happy to see that Mario is getting a fair crack now and some positive press, just as in the same way Mignolet is as well. Both were under significant pressure and through various mechanisms they found themselves with time to regroup. I think that's why Mario is being introduced bit by bit, to avoid the same thing happening again. I'd be more inclined to criticise BR if we weren't getting the results, but for the time being it's working and I hope we continue to grow stronger.

I hope the same for Lovren as well. It's a lot of young people and a common theme is that people don't realise the extra pressure LFC and Anfield brings to a player...they certainly underestimate it and we gamble a lot for employing people who are perhaps not emotionally geared up to dealing with it....the way that we appear to be showing compassion and support for the players I appreciate as we put them in that situation in the first place and it's for us to get them to where we need them to be.

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:31 pm wrote:
As for harking back to our halcyon heydays ,we didn't just pass the ball we out manoeuvred teams with real intelligence and the managers could tinker with their 
stratagems to nullify the threat an opposing team ,rather than being overly reliant on pace and ball retention.

Honestly mate ,I  have yet to see evidence that the current manager is capable of introducing such game changing tactics ,and those beliefs  if I'm honest swept
through the Kop on Thursday night.

I totally get and agree with the first comment that we're a long way short of that with the current squad/management/finance etc. We're not by far the finished product and until BR does win something of significance, he'll continue to face that criticism....possibly until he does it on a regular basis. I think that is totally fair comment as well.

My reasons for referencing the halycon heydays is that is where I think we all communally would like to get back to. I would argue that times have changed a lot since then and there's a lot more managers with tactical nouse about them than probably existed back in the period of our dominance and the quality of foreign teams left a lot more to be desired than nowadays as well. I would argue that we were ahead of the game in the late 60's going into the 70's and were able to combine fairly exclusive managerial talent, with a financial execution that few others could compete with, plus bargains were still to be found across the lower divisions. Nowadays anyone who can kick a ball and run in a straight line seems to be signed up by some club from birth on the off chance that they might turn into the next Gerrard making that sort of initiative a thing of the past. Add in agents and millionaire teenagers who are not afraid of the boss and will quite willingly take their services to the highest bidder and the 24*7 media scrutiny that exists today and you have a much more difficult environment to operate in. I forgot to mention transfer committees

All I am saying is that with all the in mind, he isn't doing that badly.    Does he have the tactical nouse and killer instinct that Fergie had or Mourinho has? That's for debate for sure. I would argue that the way Suarez was dealt with showed an element of that, although if that were Fergie he would have ostracised him a la Jaap Stam. I just don't think he had the foundation in terms of squad, or legnth of service to be able to get away with anything other than what he achieved. Perhaps the way that Stevie has been ushered out is a better example. It's nowhere near enough, but when you're on thin ice and unproven, you have to be really careful when you choose to be bold that you don't hang yourself.

Homebooby » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:47 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm wrote:I think that game against Besiktas underlined my reservations with Rodgers tactical acumen ,he seems to possess no proclivity whatsoever to deviate from his current
mindset .Besiktas if we're honest are a decent well drilled team with a manager who knows how to accentuate the strength in his core group of players....but that's it !
If truth be known they're nothing special ,and with the players at the managers disposal he had more than enough options to have switched things up ,if only to confound
Bilic's tactics ,which has to be said were underlined by Rodgers with his refusal to be less predictable.   



In the first half we were tormented by Tore, and Sakho had his work cut out ,to all inside Anfield he was arguably their most potent threat ,we also seen that Ibe although
carrying a real attacking threat was naive in his defending and this often left Can exposed ,we seen how rigid our midfield was with no player pushing up to provide
protection for our main course of invention 'Coutinho' who was marked out of the game ...Bilic was more than happy to let us have the lions share of possession ,whilst retaining a firm line in defence ,they also constructed the best attacks and arguably had enough chances to return to Turkey with a few goals.

Balotelli was introduced and we looked much more threatening and more inventive ,and yet this seems to completely escape the manager  European football is a different animal than the kick and rush of the Premier League ,it requires intelligence and the tactical nous to outmanoeuvre your opponent. It may make for depressing reading ,but Liverpool are so predictable in Europe ,and managers can devise their counter tactics a month before the game.

That game on Thursday typified  the reason we're out of the Champion's League and it evoked some deeply unpleasant memories of our game against Basel ,a real lack
of game intelligence and once again overlooking the best players to complete the job . I mean what's so difficult ,the games at Anfield and you have two brilliant strikers
to spearhead your attack and you leave one (who has started to play with a real flourish of late ) on the bench ....it completely baffles me 

I went back and read this again properly out of courtesy as much as anything  . I obviously wasn't at the stadium, but was watching on TV and my interpretation of the game was nowhere near as insightful as what you've written, could be because I don't 'get/know' football well enough, or more likely it's down to the way my brain has always worked, more big picture than in the details and forgiving of certain weaknesses with an understanding that you can do what you can do with the people you have got and no more. My general feeling was that we mostly dominated the game, had a huge amount of possession, but struggled to do anything with it in the last 3rd a lot of the time, which is not insignificant.

I am not sure whether what you describe is related to tactics, or just the reality of the players we have, playing in the positions we do.

Clearly we're weak at the back and I can't believe that this is something that is a long term plan. Can out of position, no full backs, an ageing Sahko and Skrtel who I struggle to trust. I'm (blindly) hoping for a major overhaul here in the summer as we're still vulnerable to a set piece and don't display the assurance of champions here. Based on these details, I don't get too up in arms about it...it's not where it needs to be and I have to believe that the mgt team knows that too....it's obvious for everyone else to see

Midfield was clearly the place where so much investment has gone these past seasons. My biggest issue with the choices made for midfield is one that would perhaps be viewed as superficial, but I think is significant and touches on your point about Coutinho. I think we miss physical presence in the center and we often get muscled out of things. Coutinho is great example of what I would call a European star, give him space and he can be devastating....sit on him and he goes missing...just doesn't have the presence to not let that be a factor. In search of the speed, nippiness and skill, we've sacrificed muscle I think, mostly cos Stevie was providing that, but that's been on the slide for a while. Will Can moving into midfield bring that....perhaps...but I think we're still low on it.

Which brings me to Mario, I've commented a few times that he's a behemoth when he comes on the pitch...a tank of 'don't f**k with me' physical presence and I think that's what you saw there in the game. It's an impressive thing to behold and he looks like a man amongst boys. So I agree with you that he's a potential game/style changer. I can only explain the ways he's been sparingly used is related to the lack of performance in the first run of games that he had for us. He was so far off the pace for me that we felt like we were playing with 10 men. I'd argue that BR gave him a shot, then altered tactics to get him to want to play. I am not convinced he's successful on that front, but it does look promising and I think it's only fair to judge Mario in a team where he has a proper no-nonsense striker to play off of and he now has that in Sturridge. Potentially they can really cause some trouble.

The other area I really struggle with and I don't understand why it's not commented more on, also on the post game reviews etc and that's the width that we lack/have lacked. I do find myself dumbfounded when BR says week on week that we had good width, when all I see is the winger sprinting from the line towards the penalty spot through a wall of players only to inevitably lose the ball in the pile of legs and feet we come across. When we were lacking any strikers in the team and Sterling was the only one up front, there were so many times a break was on and a ball played into the box only to find there's noone within 10 yards of it. So we stop crossing.....I think this is where Danny and Mario can also make a difference, but we're not doing it enough. Ibe showed the last couple of game what a winger can/should do....hit the byline and cross and hope someone connects. That's the bit of our gameplan that continues to frustrate me more than anything else.

Good post ,our game is dependant on a midfielder who can read the game as well as Lucas ,its know coincidence that Coutinho has found his form because of Lucas's
influence on the game as a whole ,he not only protects the defence but provides protection for the likes of Coutinho ,Lallana being successfully drawn out positions
were they can propose a threat to an opponents back line. My reservations are simply based on the premise Rodgers could clearly see in the first half we were being
bullied out of possession in the last third and the progression Besiktas were making in the rampaging runs of Tore ,he could have tinkered with the tactics to alleviate
the attention Coutinho and Lallana were given ,he could have quelled Ibes intensity to attack every time he received the ball and concentrate on being more composed
and affording Can some protection at the back.

We will no doubt play the same when we visit St Marys ,and in the Premiership that's fine ,but persisting with the same methodology game in and game out
is not conducive to a successful European team. As for the lack of width you touched on I think your bang on the money with that one.

We agree implicitely on Mario ,so you should enjoy this Homebooby 

Homebooby » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:17 pm wrote::D


If I believed those 3 were true, then I would stand behind them. I just see no value in commenting on the 'what might have beens' and 'what could be if's' which seems to be increasingly prevalent. This is the squad we have, this is the manager we have and we're not doing too badly at the moment basically sums it up. I don't buy the arguments that we're operating at mid-table club level, but we're kidding ourselves if we think we can compete with the Chelseas, Citys and Utd's for talent at the moment as we're not the club we once were. Take Sterling and Ibe as examples. They weren't born the last time we won the league. They only really know a world where Chelsea and Utd win stuff, much like me as a youngster growing up in the 80's. Things got messed up really badly over the last 20 years to the point where we almost went bankrupt and we were prostituted on the back pages every single day. My view of the world tries to keep that all in mind and look at where we're going. For the first time since Kenny left, I'm seeing a 5 year plan that shows some semblance of promise of us returning to longer term sustainable success playing football in a style that's in keeping with the way I remember us playing in our heyday.

Who do you think you are?? Supporting our manager??!!! FFS!!!     

Catch yourself on you bizarre apologist!

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:47 pm wrote:

maguskwt » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:30 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 pm wrote:I think that game against Besiktas underlined my reservations with Rodgers tactical acumen ,he seems to possess no proclivity whatsoever to deviate from his current
mindset .Besiktas if we're honest are a decent well drilled team with a manager who knows how to accentuate the strength in his core group of players....but that's it !
If truth be known they're nothing special ,and with the players at the managers disposal he had more than enough options to have switched things up ,if only to confound
Bilic's tactics ,which has to be said were underlined by Rodgers with his refusal to be less predictable.   



In the first half we were tormented by Tore, and Sakho had his work cut out ,to all inside Anfield he was arguably their most potent threat ,we also seen that Ibe although
carrying a real attacking threat was naive in his defending and this often left Can exposed ,we seen how rigid our midfield was with no player pushing up to provide
protection for our main course of invention 'Coutinho' who was marked out of the game ...Bilic was more than happy to let us have the lions share of possession ,whilst retaining a firm line in defence ,they also constructed the best attacks and arguably had enough chances to return to Turkey with a few goals.

Balotelli was introduced and we looked much more threatening and more inventive ,and yet this seems to completely escape the manager  European football is a different animal than the kick and rush of the Premier League ,it requires intelligence and the tactical nous to outmanoeuvre your opponent. It may make for depressing reading ,but Liverpool are so predictable in Europe ,and managers can devise their counter tactics a month before the game.

That game on Thursday typified  the reason we're out of the Champion's League and it evoked some deeply unpleasant memories of our game against Basel ,a real lack
of game intelligence and once again overlooking the best players to complete the job . I mean what's so difficult ,the games at Anfield and you have two brilliant strikers
to spearhead your attack and you leave one (who has started to play with a real flourish of late ) on the bench ....it completely baffles me 

Whilst I agree that BR has still much to learn in Europe, what baffles me is anyone blaming the manager for not relyinng on Balotelli, when during the first half of the season the manager stuck with Balotelli and time and again the player has let his manager down. And the current resurgence wasn't based on Balotelli.

It could be argued though that earlier on in the season Balotelli was carrying the can for our poor performances when it was other area's of the team that were not functioning properly.
Is it any coincidence that once Gerrard was moved out of midfield and Lovren out of the back 4 that our form improved dramatically?

I believe it's a combination of 4 factors. Gerrard in a 4-4-2 midfield could not contain the opposition and we often let the other team's midfield dominate ours. Lovren with his gung-ho careless approach doesn't help with stability of defense. Mignolet's over-thinking and non-confidence further compromised the already shaky defense. But we can't discount the fact that our attack was also miserable with Ballotelli. The youtube video RBG posted on the Chelsea game actually doesn't help his case. He was just all over the place, it was not purposeful direct running that a forward should be doing. What was he doing at the side lines when there was a huge hole in Chelsea's defense he should be running at which would allow coutinho to execute his defense splitting pass? And all that running for lost causes. I believe alot of people on here commented how much a difference it made when sterling played up top due to his direct running, despite the fact that he wasn't an out-and-out striker. With Balotelli's low football IQ, the impact of our playmakers like Coutinho and Lallana was severely reduced. Don't get me wrong, when Balotelli was signed, I was one of those who thought that it was an exciting signing. But the first half performance by the team lead me to believe that Balotelli, together with Lovren are failed signings. Recently he has shown glimpses of his quality. But how can anyone blame the manager for not relying on Balotelli, when our resurgence started when Balotelli was benched and he played Sterling as a lone striker? Balotelli could still come good but I believe what the manager is doing with him, easing him back, is the correct way forward. Let him study what the team's way of playing is all about.