Liverpool FC Forum

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Article written by Dave Usher

Before you dismiss this as typical ‘prisoner of the moment’ nonsense, hear me out.I’ll start by addressing the first thing many of you are no doubt preparing to hit me with. Yes, man for man Rafa’s side that finished second in 08/09 had better players than we have currently. It’s debatable whether they matched the sum of their parts though.

Pepe Reina, Jamie Carragher, Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano, Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres…. most would walk into today’s team (sorry Fernando, Klopp isn’t dropping Bobby for anybody and nor should he), and big Sami was still knocking around too even though he was no longer an automatic selection.That team finished with 86 points and lost only two games. Yet with those players, drawing 11 games that year was incredibly frustrating. Inexcusable even. Most remember that team for what they did in the last couple of months of the season, but I have trouble forgetting what they couldn’t do in the middle of it.

That team should have been champions but too often they played – in Gerrard’s words – “with the handbrake on”. Klopp’s team doesn’t even have a handbrake, which isn’t always a good thing but means there’s never a dull moment. As good as that 08/09 team was, I’ll always feel that they underachieved. I’m not even sure I’d have them ahead of the 13/14 side that went within a Gerrard slip of winning the title. That 2014 team was the most exciting I’d seen since Kenny’s great sides of the late 80s, but ultimately its shortcomings – and the intervention of the evil football Gods – would ensure they came up agonisingly short.

The slip against Chelsea, collapse at Palace, subsequent departure of Luis Suarez and the massive hangover we suffered the following season has tarnished how that team is now remembered. I try not to even think about that season because the way it ended still hurts so much, but at the time it was one hell of a ride.Houllier’s treble winners hold a special place in my heart and certainly deserve a mention. They achieved great things in the cups and I love each and every one of them for it, even Michael Owen (even if he does make it incredibly difficult). They lost nine league games that year though and picked up just 69 points.

Obviously this is a subjective topic and we will all have different ways of judging which side is the best. Points and trophies is the obvious one, but the two best sides we’ve had since 1990 actually won nothing and the current side probably won’t either.So I’m judging it on the eye test and how it feels when I watch this team. The football they regularly produce is on another level to anything we’ve seen before. They have their flaws, but they have done some incredible things this season, without really getting the credit it deserves We’ve won two Champions League fixtures 7-0 and won 5-0 at Porto in the knockout stages (results like that NEVER happen). We’re the only team to beat Man City, blowing them away in a ten-minute spell that was simply devastating, and these lads routinely score four goals or more as though it’s the easiest thing in the world. When it happens it’s usually explained away by how poor the opposition were. Funny how no-one else is doing it to these same teams though, eh?

Most opponents are so terrified they just pack the defence and hope they can hold out and convert the inevitable chance(s) we’ll give them. That’s the best policy because anyone who tries to actually play football tends to get annihilated.

Yet there are several regular starters who many fans would happily show the door to. That tells me that this team is greater than the sum of its parts. They shouldn’t really be able to do what we regularly see them do, but that’s because Klopp is – for me – the best in the business. He’s the reason I hold this team in higher regard than the 2009 and 2014 vintages. Player for player this team might not stack up, but the way they play (most of the time) sets them apart.Only City have scored more in the Premier League and nobody has scored more in the Champions League. I expect a minimum of three goals every game. When we ‘only’ score three I’m a little disappointed.

Of course football is about defending too and this team lets too many in. We might beat Newcastle 6-0 this weekend but equally we might lose 3-2. I’m half expecting that now after writing this. Such hubris often blows up in my face in the same way Dejan Lovren’s ‘I’m in the form of my life” comments before games do.

There is always one of those clunker results just around the corner though, which is why many of you aren’t buying what I’m selling here. I get that. I may feel that this team is the best but I can’t say it with any certainty as there are still big questions they have to answer. I’m under no illusions as to their flaws and despite the praise I’ve heaped on them I don’t completely trust them yet. Not when it matters anyway. How can I? In recent years we’ve choked in too many important games and until that changes can’t truly believe in them.

I’d back them to beat anyone in Europe over two legs but I wouldn’t back them against a pub team in a one off final at a neutral venue. I’m still scarred by that Europe League final. My eyes and my gut tell me this team is our best since 1990, but they must prove it. Winning something would be one way to do that, but it’s harder to win the league now than ever. It’s difficult enough getting in the top four, but the financial doping of City has completely shifted the goalposts in terms of the title.

I’m an advocate of “first is first, second is nowhere” but it does not apply this season because of the record-setting pace being set by Pep Guardiola’s side. Even our greatest title-winning teams couldn’t keep up with that, so finishing second would be an achievement of sorts. Not cause for celebration (we’re not Arsenal), but certainly cause for optimism. I’m not overly confident we will finish second even though I have no doubt we are the second best team. The seemingly limitless levels of spawn possessed by a bang average United side, coupled with our own habit of shooting ourselves in the foot causes me to question whether we’ll do it, but finishing second while playing this brand of football would surely confirm this team as our best in 28 years.

Or they could just win the Champions League, that would work too.

When I first read it, I thought lets not get ahead of ourselves there Davey lad,but after much deliberation I decided to read the article once more and thought Usher is old enough and wise enough ,to have witnessed some great teams gracing that famous old stadium and like a lot of older Kopites sees an eleven that draws comparisons with some of our finest,he's certainly not prone to making outrageous statements. I think from a personal perspective,the comparison with the 1990 team is unbalanced until
we have our own McMahon in the middle and the type of steel he provided,but albeit from that I think its a great article.

Views people ?

[woof woof !]

team is unbalanced until
we have our own McMahon in the middle and the type of steel he provided,but albeit from that I think its a great article.

Sorry mate, for me McMahon was always more tin than steel ! Completely mugged off by the sheer aggression of Vinnie Jones in the FA Cup final back in 1988.

After a few "tasty" challenges from the Wimbledon player McMahon lost his resolve, if we'd have had a Souness on that day things would have been different !

As for the rest of the article..........

Haven't read it yet 

It's a long one and dinners on the table   

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

team is unbalanced until
we have our own McMahon in the middle and the type of steel he provided,but albeit from that I think its a great article.

Sorry mate, for me McMahon was always more tin than steel ! Completely mugged off by the sheer aggression of Vinnie Jones in the FA Cup final back in 1988.

After a few "tasty" challenges from the Wimbledon player McMahon lost his resolve, if we'd have had a Souness on that day things would have been different !

As for the rest of the article..........

Haven't read it yet 

It's a long one and dinners on the table   :buttrock

So's mine fella,Sunday Roast and its nearly f*cking Monday 

[Big Niall]

I remember thinking the 1990 team was poor (remember Palace 4-3 ?)

Shankly was  before my time but giving the job to paisley was crazy , never managed. IMO he’s the greatest British manager ever , however when he left they gave the job to Fagan (never managed ) and he kept the machine motoring along , then Dalglish (never managed ) and by the mid 80s Everton were the best (2 leagues in 3 years) and by 1991when Kenny left Arsenal were the best (2 leagues in 3 years, lost just one game , dodgy decision too v Chelsea ) .

Ferguson did NOT knock us off the pedestal, we were already gone by appointing non managers.

[maguskwt]

I remember thinking the 1990 team was poor (remember Palace 4-3 ?)

Shankly was  before my time but giving the job to paisley was crazy , never managed. IMO he’s the greatest British manager ever , however when he left they gave the job to Fagan (never managed ) and he kept the machine motoring along , then Dalglish (never managed ) and by the mid 80s Everton were the best (2 leagues in 3 years) and by 1991when Kenny left Arsenal were the best (2 leagues in 3 years, lost just one game , dodgy decision too v Chelsea ) .

Ferguson did NOT knock us off the pedestal, we were already gone by appointing non managers.

Never managed but they won league titles and european cups? So much for appointing "non-managers"

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

People are getting carried away, Rafa's 08/09 side would smash this team that we've got now, our midfield struggled against Dembele and Dier can you imagine what a prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano would do to them?
Our front 3 are good but Rafa's back 4 regularly kept out great attacks, when we knocked Barcelona out of the CL they had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Thuram, Deco and a young Messi in their line up, when we beat United home and away in 08/09 they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (when they were all in their 20's).
Yes we have put 5 past Porto but Rafa's team put 4 past Real Madrid.
Rafa's 08/09 team was the best team in the country but it didn't win the title for 2 reasons, the first was that Gerrard and Torres only played in half the games together and the second was that Ronaldo was outstanding for United during the run in, as that season drew to a close United weren't actually playing that well but Ronaldo kept bailing them out.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

team is unbalanced until
we have our own McMahon in the middle and the type of steel he provided,but albeit from that I think its a great article.

Sorry mate, for me McMahon was always more tin than steel ! Completely mugged off by the sheer aggression of Vinnie Jones in the FA Cup final back in 1988.

After a few "tasty" challenges from the Wimbledon player McMahon lost his resolve, if we'd have had a Souness on that day things would have been different !

As for the rest of the article..........

Haven't read it yet 

It's a long one and dinners on the table   :buttrock

McMahon was a very good player, that game against Wimbledon was just one of those games where we didn't turn up and everything went against us on the day (Beardsley having a perfectly good goal ruled out and a free kick being awarded to us, Aldridge missing a pen (incidentally the only pen he ever missed), Barnes having his worst game in a red shirt etc).
Too much was made of that loss by the media as well, to this day they hype it up as a David and Goliath battle when in truth Wimbledon were a tough side who could beat anyone on their day, in fact every single team in the league dreaded and I mean dreaded playing them. Wimbledon finished 7th in the top flight that year yet the way the media go on you'd swear they were a lower league side, in the previous decade United had lost an FA Cup final to lower league opposition (Southampton) as had Arsenal (West Ham) but somehow our game was the shock of the century?

[Reg]

team is unbalanced until
we have our own McMahon in the middle and the type of steel he provided,but albeit from that I think its a great article.

Sorry mate, for me McMahon was always more tin than steel ! Completely mugged off by the sheer aggression of Vinnie Jones in the FA Cup final back in 1988.

... and you and I will forever judge McMahon by that one performance. Owned.

[maguskwt]

People are getting carried away, Rafa's 08/09 side would smash this team that we've got now, our midfield struggled against Dembele and Dier can you imagine what a prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano would do to them?
Our front 3 are good but Rafa's back 4 regularly kept out great attacks, when we knocked Barcelona out of the CL they had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Thuram, Deco and a young Messi in their line up, when we beat United home and away in 08/09 they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (when they were all in their 20's).
Yes we have put 5 past Porto but Rafa's team put 4 past Real Madrid.
Rafa's 08/09 team was the best team in the country but it didn't win the title for 2 reasons, the first was that Gerrard and Torres only played in half the games together and the second was that Ronaldo was outstanding for United during the run in, as that season drew to a close United weren't actually playing that well but Ronaldo kept bailing them out.

Yup seem to remember that mate. I think it was also Macheda who kept scoring for them last min winners. We were playing catch up though and we couldn't catch up.

It is debatable which team is better though. Rafa's teams are very solid and balanced whereas Klopp's teams are very attacking. I would also give an edge to Rafa's 08/09 team. As for as I know Klopp's BD team could never beat Rafa's team, even though they were storming the Bundesliga. Rafa is just tactically more astute. However, it has to be noted that that 08/09 team was Rafa's team at its fully formed version. The current Klopp's team is not fully formed yet.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

People are getting carried away, Rafa's 08/09 side would smash this team that we've got now, our midfield struggled against Dembele and Dier can you imagine what a prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano would do to them?
Our front 3 are good but Rafa's back 4 regularly kept out great attacks, when we knocked Barcelona out of the CL they had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Thuram, Deco and a young Messi in their line up, when we beat United home and away in 08/09 they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (when they were all in their 20's).
Yes we have put 5 past Porto but Rafa's team put 4 past Real Madrid.
Rafa's 08/09 team was the best team in the country but it didn't win the title for 2 reasons, the first was that Gerrard and Torres only played in half the games together and the second was that Ronaldo was outstanding for United during the run in, as that season drew to a close United weren't actually playing that well but Ronaldo kept bailing them out.

Yup seem to remember that mate. I think it was also Macheda who kept scoring for them last min winners. We were playing catch up though and we couldn't catch up.

It is debatable which team is better though. Rafa's teams are very solid and balanced whereas Klopp's teams are very attacking. I would also give an edge to Rafa's 08/09 team. As for as I know Klopp's BD team could never beat Rafa's team, even though they were storming the Bundesliga. Rafa is just tactically more astute. However, it has to be noted that that 08/09 team was Rafa's team at its fully formed version. The current Klopp's team is not fully formed yet.

True, Klopp has only really just started but he will do well to match that team Rafa built, 86 points, 2 losses and as I said Gerrard and Torres only played in half the league games together, god knows how many points they would have accrued if we'd had more luck with injuries, mind you speaking of luck Rafa did have a lot of luck in the sense that he inherited probably the best player in this clubs 126 year history, he also inherited a very solid CB pairing in Carragher and Hyypia too, okay they weren't as classy as say Hansen and Lawrenson but they could absorb pressure all day long without cracking.
When Rafa arrived the spine of a great team was already half in place where as Jurgen has been battling defence and midfield issue's since he walked through the door.

[redshade]

People are getting carried away, Rafa's 08/09 side would smash this team that we've got now, our midfield struggled against Dembele and Dier can you imagine what a prime Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano would do to them?
Our front 3 are good but Rafa's back 4 regularly kept out great attacks, when we knocked Barcelona out of the CL they had the likes of Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Thuram, Deco and a young Messi in their line up, when we beat United home and away in 08/09 they had a front 3 of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (when they were all in their 20's).
Yes we have put 5 past Porto but Rafa's team put 4 past Real Madrid.
Rafa's 08/09 team was the best team in the country but it didn't win the title for 2 reasons, the first was that Gerrard and Torres only played in half the games together and the second was that Ronaldo was outstanding for United during the run in, as that season drew to a close United weren't actually playing that well but Ronaldo kept bailing them out.

Just wasn't neant to be i recall a few times when mannure were 2-0 down and won 3-2. We had a good balanced side then.

[Ghost of Shankly]

The 1990 Liverpool team that won the title under Dalglish is no way comparable to Liverpool teams since.
Since sky TV came along and the billionaire sugar daddy owners and clubs readily paying 100m for players, that's the reason Liverpool have not won the league since. The competition and financial muscle is fierce. In 1990,Liverpool were the top dogs, but the game wasn't driven by money then. Liverpool have been overtaken by man Utd, Chelsea and man city in recent seasons in terms of financial muscle, and we couldn't win the league in the 08/09 season due to man utd's financial muscle and ability to attract the best players in Europe.
That hasn't changed, we still can't today and are a selling club. If salah, for example continues his stunning form, we'll struggle to hold onto him.

The best team we had since 1990 was the 08/09 team IMHO, but like I say, we never won anything due to our rivals advantages.

Too early to say if Klopp can win us the league, as there are external factors. Also, Klopp always plays 4-3-3 in every match and has no plan B. It does not always work in every match that formation. He hasn't won diddly squat yet, and Rafa finished second and got us to two champions league finals.

The jury's out until Klopp actually wins us something meaningful.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Since sky TV came along and the billionaire sugar daddy owners and clubs readily paying 100m for players, that's the reason Liverpool have not won the league since. The competition and financial muscle is fierce. In 1990,Liverpool were the top dogs, but the game wasn't driven by money then. Liverpool have been overtaken by man Utd, Chelsea and man city in recent seasons in terms of financial muscle, and we couldn't win the league in the 08/09 season due to man utd's financial muscle and ability to attract the best players in Europe.

The premier league has been a perfect example of that old adage 'be careful what you wish for'.
It's often forgotten now that we (LFC) were one of the main drivers behind it, the 3 clubs really pushing for the formation of the prem were Liverpool, Everton (their chairman Philip Carter was actually the spokesperson for the breakaway clubs) and Tottenham.
Ironically Man United were dead set against it, at the time they hadn't won the league in 20 odd years and thought it would just make the likes of Liverpool and Everton even stronger, Arsenal were against it because the family which owned them at the time (the Hill-Woods) were proper old school Corinthian types who didn't believe it was fair to ditch the lower league clubs.
We pushed for it thinking our success would just continue on and on and we'd be super wealthy but we haven't won the title since. If we win it next year it will have been 29 years between title wins.