4-2-3-1 - Its current flaws

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby ruskiy playmaker » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:52 am

Scottbot wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:I remember Crouch playing as a lone striker against Arsenal last year and he scored a perfect hatrick.

That's a good point mate! But can you remember how poor the Arsenal back four were that day plus weren't they pretty patched up?

Yes, Arsenal were pretty crappy that day, but it was still impressive.  I just think that Crouch can be effective as a lone striker because he can hold the ball up well and bring in other players around him into play.
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Postby stmichael » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:29 pm

Sky do my head in more everytime I watch us on there.

I mean the other night, Souness suggested that the current formation was either stumbled on by Rafa or was luck - No judgement there then Graeme?

Yes folks, the man who gave us Kozma, Piechnik and Kvarme tut-tutting about Rafa. Quite extraordinary really.
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Postby puroresu » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:06 pm

The results have been good.  I would say its a formation Rafa has picked based on bring more attacking though.  I dont think 2 holding midfielders need to play against the majority of sides we face.  The brilliant of torres is such a big factor.  None our other front players could play in this role and do what is needed.
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Postby The_Rock » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:28 pm

For this formation to really work we need

1)pacy fullbacks who can cross the ball very well.
2)The left and right forward/wingers who are good on the wings (ie....taking on players, crossing, chiping in with their fair share of goals...etc).

So if we fix that.....shouldn't be a problem to dominate this league (and ....yes, no "rafa-style" rotation)....
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Postby stmichael » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:46 pm

It was the system that Rafa used in Valencia, I think it's been used over the years but Rafa can definitely be credited with re-pioneering it in Spain. Because the media are so thick, they said that it was Jose who first started using it with Chelsea, but it wasn't.

We even played it in Rafa's first season here. It's almost the perfect system, in terms of attacking/defending balance, but the problem with it is you need very specific individuals to make it work as The Rock has said. In many ways, Garcia was ideal for the current system we are playing.

In a 4-4-2 we have weak areas and Rafa has to choose between 1 of 3 midfielders as Gerrard's partner. In the current formation, the choices are easier, the players more suited to it and there are fewer weak links. All Rafa has to do now is stop pi$$ing about with the fullbacks and we might see a more solid defence.
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Postby LFC2007 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:17 pm

Let's not forget this side was fielded against Wigan in a 4-2-3-1 formation;


Pepe Reina 
Fabio Aurelio   
Alvaro Arbeloa   
Jamie Carragher   
Steve Finnan
Harry Kewell
Xabi Alonso 
Javier Mascherano 
Jermaine Pennant
Steven Gerrard ©
Fernando Torres


Rafa got lambasted for that one.
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:21 pm

Not the most flattering article in terms of assessing Stevie's character but the tactical discussion about his role in the 4-2-3-1 formation is interesting.

FROM Football365.com


Stevie`s Ego Has Landed At Last...
Posted 13/03/08 12:02
EmailPrintSave


Despite the obvious qualities and iconic status of Stevie G, I've long held the belief that Rafa Benitez would be glad to see the back of him - well, until the arrival of Fernando Torres that is.

Gerrard has always posed something of a problem for the Spaniard. Undoubtedly Liverpool's best player for the past several years, Gerrard's tactical indiscipline allied with a need to maintain a hero's standing has often upset Rafa's tactical tinkering.

A peculiarity of the English view is that to be a world-class midfield player, you must play in central midfield (never mind that the likes of Zidane, Figo and others did their best work notionally to the left or the right). In England, you must be the fulcrum - the general. Gerrard and David Beckham are the two most recent English players of genuine quality to suffer from this general outlook.

Take Becks. Despite being a truly world-class operator on the right - the conventional wisdom was that Golden Balls would eventually make the move to the middle where his genuine class would properly flourish. It was if this was a step forward - a natural progression.

But Becks' move inside was a failure for him and for Madrid where he was playing at the time. Lacking the guile and quick thinking required to play that role, Beckham suffered a serious dip in form. The team malfunctioned and so did he.

Gerrard has posed a similar problem for Benitez. Gerrard has many of the qualities required to be successful in that position. He has the engine, he has the power and the skill - but he does not have the game sense. Compare Gerrard's distribution to that of Alonso (at his best) or Xavi at Barcelona. It is not that Gerrard cannot make a pass - we know he can. But his timing and decision-making are questionable.

When Gerrard plays in the middle, Liverpool are laboured, ponderous and predictable. Driven by his urge to be in control, Gerrard drops deep - crowding his defensive midfield partner - demanding the ball from the back. By and large, opponents are happy to see him do this. The odd 60-yard ball apart, Gerrard does not really hurt opponents from such a deep position. His immediate reaction is to look long or cross-field. Spectacular when it works - easier to defend the more you do it in a game.

Watch Xavi, Alonso, Fabregas - quick feet, quicker minds. They tend not to dwell, they move the ball - and move again in support. Every ball is not the killer ball - more often that not, their passing is used to create the foundations for a goal - keeping possession, probing, stretching opponents - eeking out openings.

Gerrard lacks patience - he needs to make an impact. And he is well aware of the media - a media that insists that his best position is in the middle. Hence, Stevie's pre-season grumbles on where he'd like to be playing.

Don't get me wrong, Gerrard is better than most in this position, but it is not the best use of his talents. Finally, it seems that Rafa Benitez has found a position and a formation to allow Gerrard to make the kind of impression that feeds his ego. Playing a free role behind the excellent Torres, Gerrard is becoming a more constant menace to opponents.

It is easy to wonder how it has taken Rafa so long to hit upon this formula - the answer lies in Torres himself. The young Spaniard's pace, skill, and movement create space for Gerrard to operate where he is most dangerous - in the opposition's last third. Gerrard's new role, and Torres's brilliance, also allow Benitez to field both Alonso and Mascherano - while getting width from the likes of Babel and Pennant. The results have been striking.

And so Gerrard gets to ply his trade in the middle - his ego sated. And Rafa gets the midfield rigour he craves. Now the only question is how long the local hero will stand for playing second fiddle to Fernando?

Paul Little
Last edited by Bad Bob on Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maguskwt » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:29 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Let's not forget this side was fielded against Wigan in a 4-2-3-1 formation;


Pepe Reina 
Fabio Aurelio   
Alvaro Arbeloa   
Jamie Carragher   
Steve Finnan
Harry Kewell
Xabi Alonso 
Javier Mascherano 
Jermaine Pennant
Steven Gerrard ©
Fernando Torres


Rafa got lambasted for that one.

well, kewell and pennant are not gonna make this system work...
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:45 pm

maguskwt wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Let's not forget this side was fielded against Wigan in a 4-2-3-1 formation;


Pepe Reina 
Fabio Aurelio   
Alvaro Arbeloa   
Jamie Carragher   
Steve Finnan
Harry Kewell
Xabi Alonso 
Javier Mascherano 
Jermaine Pennant
Steven Gerrard ©
Fernando Torres


Rafa got lambasted for that one.

well, kewell and pennant are not gonna make this system work...

I agree about Pennant but a fit and on form Kewell would be ideal for this system.  Sadly, those days are behind him.
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Postby JC_81 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:59 pm

stmichael wrote:It was the system that Rafa used in Valencia, I think it's been used over the years but Rafa can definitely be credited with re-pioneering it in Spain. Because the media are so thick, they said that it was Jose who first started using it with Chelsea, but it wasn't.

We even played it in Rafa's first season here. It's almost the perfect system, in terms of attacking/defending balance, but the problem with it is you need very specific individuals to make it work as The Rock has said. In many ways, Garcia was ideal for the current system we are playing.

In a 4-4-2 we have weak areas and Rafa has to choose between 1 of 3 midfielders as Gerrard's partner. In the current formation, the choices are easier, the players more suited to it and there are fewer weak links. All Rafa has to do now is stop pi$$ing about with the fullbacks and we might see a more solid defence.

The first time I saw this system used to real effect was the France '98 world cup team.

It was something like:

                               Barthez

Thuram           Blanc           Desailly             Lizarazu

                   Deschamps    Petit

Henry/Djorkaeff          Zidane                     Pires

                           Guivarch (      :laugh: )

Think they rotated the wide men quite a bit, Karembeu and even Diomede got a few games in.  Trezeguet got a few as the central striker too.  What a team - if only Henry had been converted to a central striker by then!

Certainly a major strength of that French team's system was the ability of their full backs to get up and support the attacks.  However Rafa's Valencia and Mourinho's Chelsea also had good success with the system, but they relied far more on the wide forwards than full backs.

In my opinion, full backs would obviously improve our current system, but personally I'd like us to get a top winger in as our number one priority.

The other problem we have is that we have only Gerrard who can play the link role effectively, and only Torres who can play the lone striking role effectively.  Therefore in my opinion our squad is nowhere near set up for sticking to this system over a season - it would need seriously reshaped.  However it should do for this season.
Last edited by JC_81 on Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Scottbot » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:36 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Not the most flattering article in terms of assessing Stevie's character but the tactical discussion about his role in the 4-2-3-1 formation is interesting.

FROM Football365.com


Stevie`s Ego Has Landed At Last...
Posted 13/03/08 12:02
EmailPrintSave


Despite the obvious qualities and iconic status of Stevie G, I've long held the belief that Rafa Benitez would be glad to see the back of him - well, until the arrival of Fernando Torres that is.

Gerrard has always posed something of a problem for the Spaniard. Undoubtedly Liverpool's best player for the past several years, Gerrard's tactical indiscipline allied with a need to maintain a hero's standing has often upset Rafa's tactical tinkering.

A peculiarity of the English view is that to be a world-class midfield player, you must play in central midfield (never mind that the likes of Zidane, Figo and others did their best work notionally to the left or the right). In England, you must be the fulcrum - the general. Gerrard and David Beckham are the two most recent English players of genuine quality to suffer from this general outlook.

Take Becks. Despite being a truly world-class operator on the right - the conventional wisdom was that Golden Balls would eventually make the move to the middle where his genuine class would properly flourish. It was if this was a step forward - a natural progression.

But Becks' move inside was a failure for him and for Madrid where he was playing at the time. Lacking the guile and quick thinking required to play that role, Beckham suffered a serious dip in form. The team malfunctioned and so did he.

Gerrard has posed a similar problem for Benitez. Gerrard has many of the qualities required to be successful in that position. He has the engine, he has the power and the skill - but he does not have the game sense. Compare Gerrard's distribution to that of Alonso (at his best) or Xavi at Barcelona. It is not that Gerrard cannot make a pass - we know he can. But his timing and decision-making are questionable.

When Gerrard plays in the middle, Liverpool are laboured, ponderous and predictable. Driven by his urge to be in control, Gerrard drops deep - crowding his defensive midfield partner - demanding the ball from the back. By and large, opponents are happy to see him do this. The odd 60-yard ball apart, Gerrard does not really hurt opponents from such a deep position. His immediate reaction is to look long or cross-field. Spectacular when it works - easier to defend the more you do it in a game.

Watch Xavi, Alonso, Fabregas - quick feet, quicker minds. They tend not to dwell, they move the ball - and move again in support. Every ball is not the killer ball - more often that not, their passing is used to create the foundations for a goal - keeping possession, probing, stretching opponents - eeking out openings.

Gerrard lacks patience - he needs to make an impact. And he is well aware of the media - a media that insists that his best position is in the middle. Hence, Stevie's pre-season grumbles on where he'd like to be playing.

Don't get me wrong, Gerrard is better than most in this position, but it is not the best use of his talents. Finally, it seems that Rafa Benitez has found a position and a formation to allow Gerrard to make the kind of impression that feeds his ego. Playing a free role behind the excellent Torres, Gerrard is becoming a more constant menace to opponents.

It is easy to wonder how it has taken Rafa so long to hit upon this formula - the answer lies in Torres himself. The young Spaniard's pace, skill, and movement create space for Gerrard to operate where he is most dangerous - in the opposition's last third. Gerrard's new role, and Torres's brilliance, also allow Benitez to field both Alonso and Mascherano - while getting width from the likes of Babel and Pennant. The results have been striking.

And so Gerrard gets to ply his trade in the middle - his ego sated. And Rafa gets the midfield rigour he craves. Now the only question is how long the local hero will stand for playing second fiddle to Fernando?

Paul Little

I'd say it's a bang-on post mate. Gerrard loves to be the fulcrum, he likes to play like an Alonso or a Xavi and he can do it BUT (and it's a BIG but) he is capable of so much more but we don't really see it when he plays as one of a midfield two. I am really enjoying seeing us play in this set-up at the moment. However (to repeat stuff from earlier in this thread) we need better wide players to really trouble the mancs, Arsenals and Chelseas of this world.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:50 pm

Yes folks, the man who gave us Kozma, Piechnik and Kvarme tut-tutting about Rafa. Quite extraordinary really.


Souness has no right to scrutinise Rafa, not after the way he went about being LFC manager.
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Postby imouthep » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:27 am

Not the most flattering article in terms of assessing Stevie's character but the tactical discussion about his role in the 4-2-3-1 formation is interesting.

FROM Football365.com


Stevie`s Ego Has Landed At Last...
Posted 13/03/08 12:02
EmailPrintSave


Despite the obvious qualities and iconic status of Stevie G, I've long held the belief that Rafa Benitez would be glad to see the back of him - well, until the arrival of Fernando Torres that is.

Gerrard has always posed something of a problem for the Spaniard. Undoubtedly Liverpool's best player for the past several years, Gerrard's tactical indiscipline allied with a need to maintain a hero's standing has often upset Rafa's tactical tinkering.

A peculiarity of the English view is that to be a world-class midfield player, you must play in central midfield (never mind that the likes of Zidane, Figo and others did their best work notionally to the left or the right). In England, you must be the fulcrum - the general. Gerrard and David Beckham are the two most recent English players of genuine quality to suffer from this general outlook.

Take Becks. Despite being a truly world-class operator on the right - the conventional wisdom was that Golden Balls would eventually make the move to the middle where his genuine class would properly flourish. It was if this was a step forward - a natural progression.

But Becks' move inside was a failure for him and for Madrid where he was playing at the time. Lacking the guile and quick thinking required to play that role, Beckham suffered a serious dip in form. The team malfunctioned and so did he.

Gerrard has posed a similar problem for Benitez. Gerrard has many of the qualities required to be successful in that position. He has the engine, he has the power and the skill - but he does not have the game sense. Compare Gerrard's distribution to that of Alonso (at his best) or Xavi at Barcelona. It is not that Gerrard cannot make a pass - we know he can. But his timing and decision-making are questionable.

When Gerrard plays in the middle, Liverpool are laboured, ponderous and predictable. Driven by his urge to be in control, Gerrard drops deep - crowding his defensive midfield partner - demanding the ball from the back. By and large, opponents are happy to see him do this. The odd 60-yard ball apart, Gerrard does not really hurt opponents from such a deep position. His immediate reaction is to look long or cross-field. Spectacular when it works - easier to defend the more you do it in a game.

Watch Xavi, Alonso, Fabregas - quick feet, quicker minds. They tend not to dwell, they move the ball - and move again in support. Every ball is not the killer ball - more often that not, their passing is used to create the foundations for a goal - keeping possession, probing, stretching opponents - eeking out openings.

Gerrard lacks patience - he needs to make an impact. And he is well aware of the media - a media that insists that his best position is in the middle. Hence, Stevie's pre-season grumbles on where he'd like to be playing.

Don't get me wrong, Gerrard is better than most in this position, but it is not the best use of his talents. Finally, it seems that Rafa Benitez has found a position and a formation to allow Gerrard to make the kind of impression that feeds his ego. Playing a free role behind the excellent Torres, Gerrard is becoming a more constant menace to opponents.

It is easy to wonder how it has taken Rafa so long to hit upon this formula - the answer lies in Torres himself. The young Spaniard's pace, skill, and movement create space for Gerrard to operate where he is most dangerous - in the opposition's last third. Gerrard's new role, and Torres's brilliance, also allow Benitez to field both Alonso and Mascherano - while getting width from the likes of Babel and Pennant. The results have been striking.

And so Gerrard gets to ply his trade in the middle - his ego sated. And Rafa gets the midfield rigour he craves. Now the only question is how long the local hero will stand for playing second fiddle to Fernando?

Paul Little


I completely agree with this post it's just the way xabi is prepared to spread the ball patiently probing and stevie is more of the hollywood ball type.This system solves so many problems,one could argue that a class winger is more of a priority than in the last system.Which might be excellent for us as cash might sarse.
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Postby maguskwt » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:45 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Yes folks, the man who gave us Kozma, Piechnik and Kvarme tut-tutting about Rafa. Quite extraordinary really.


Souness has no right to scrutinise Rafa, not after the way he went about being LFC manager.

well only loser managers work as pundits don't they? winning managers still manages football clubs...
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Postby maguskwt » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:46 am

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